Brake problems with the W22

[-Gramps-]

We left Thursday around 5:30 for Bethpage and the State Good Sam's rally. 45 minutes out on 17 in Grafton/Yorktown I hit major stop and go traffic along with a couple of idiot traffic weavers and a really bad light cycle. Big mistake on my part to go down 17 (don't always listen to your GPS). If that wasn't bad enough I forgot to turn on the SMI brake system in my toad. Other than me getting impatient and wanting to stop and turn on the brake, there was no real problem until we got to the foot of the Coleman bridge. I made a stop and something smelled really bad. At the same time a motorcyclist yelled "you have a break dragging..I see smoke!" Then the ABS light came on.

I pulled over and the rear driver side dualies were hot as blazes. I didn't see smoke but I couldn't touch the inside wheel at all. Not being in a safe spot I drove another 100 yards to a pull off. We sat there for 4 hours making phone calls to AAA, Workhorse and the local WH service center trying to determine if we should and could get a tow back to Chesapeake before they closed. No luck. The tow truck did not know when they could get there and couldn't promise to tow it with the rear wheels up. I called my brother in law who used to own a tour bus company equipped with Prevosts. He said if the wheel is now cool, use your levelers and lift the rear till the wheels come off the ground and see if you can spin the tires without any problem. I did and I could. He said get out of there and head to the campground. Stop every ten miles and check for heat. Ignore the ABS light. I did and never had another problem. We pulled in around midnight with the help of a good friend who met us on the road and guided us in to the park. Once there a bunch of our chapter members helped us set up quickly so we could get some rest after a very long evening. We had a good time after that.

Sunday moring we left with the ABS light on but the brakes worked fine coming home. I stayed on 33 to 64 so I could avoid all the lights on 17. I did notice a funny squeak coming across the rear camera mike as we left,.stopped and checked it while the wife slowly moved the coach forward. It seemed to be coming from the back center of the chassis not the wheels and it quit after awhile. Could be I was just being over sensitive to sounds. Anyway, it went to the shop on Tuesday to be checked out.

Well, here is the update. I am getting the ABS sensor replaced and that is it. Unfortunately the repair shop wanted to replace both the rotors and the calipers on the rear wheels. 1600 hundred bucks plus 500 dollars to order parts overnight or I would have to wait 10 days. This after telling me yesterday they could find nothing wrong with the brakes and that they would call me to come pick the coach up later in the day. I didn't hear from them, so I called and they said there was still a problem and give them till noon the next day (today). That seemed a bit fishy to me. When they called this morning, they said my rotors were warped and the calipers were bad. Now I had no problem at all with the passenger side of the coach. So I didn't approve the fix..I said I wanted to see the damage so they said come on out to the shop. I did, and my brother in law, who owned a touring coach company, went with me. As soon as he started to examine the wheels the story changed and the repair turned into a recommended upgrade of the pads. They said it would be better because if it happens once it will happen again. Maybe, but there was no warping or cracking, only a bit of burn residue on the top inch or so of the rotors...looks like someone took a rubber eraser to it and left part of it behind. This according to Workhorse is a normal thing to see. So as it stands now, a sensor is coming in overnight, the coach should be back together tommorrow or Tuesday. Workhorse is not too happy with the dealer at the moment. Final note: Workhorse still thinks the pins and slides should be cleaned and lubed but the dealer dismisses that idea and says it is just an excuse for bad brakes..they should be replaced. Bosche parts for Bosche parts. No thanks. I think I need to find a new service center except for any Workhorse recalls that might happen in the future.

(note: at the time I made this post, I owned an 04 Bounder 36s on a WH W-22 chassis, I traded the coach in July 08 for the one now in my sig)

[Tom N]

What year and chassis and was this the first time out this year???

-Tom

[-Gramps-]

04 W22 and this was our third time out. The second one being 3 weeks before this last time.

[RottenRalph]

Sorry to here of your problems.

Unfortunatly you are not alone. Many of us have had this problem which is common with this chassis.

If you search this forum for brake problems you will be up all night reading.

You can also see the investigation on the NHTSA website here. http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/defects/results.cfm

I would first recommend you report this problem to NTSHA then get that caliper, hose and brake fluid changed.

Be prepaired for this to happen again.

[edgray]

Quote:

Final note: Workhorse still thinks the pins and slides should be cleaned and lubed but the dealer dismisses that idea and says it is just an excuse for bad brakes..they should be replaced. Bosche parts for Bosche parts. No thanks. I think I need to find a new service center except for any Workhorse recalls that might happen in the future.

GRAMPS: Sorry you had a problem, but it sounds like you've handled the situation well. Many times the dealer will want to replace "everything" and, IMO, it is not always necessary, as you have apparently found out.

When a dealer replaces everything, it accomplishes several things, most of which are good for the dealer, IMO. For example, with "everything" new, the chance you will come back expecting them to "make right", at no additional cost to you, some additional problem which "may" develope is deminished. Then there is the additional "mark up" they made on the additional parts, and the additional hours for the tech. I think their ultimate goal in replacing everything is to limit their liability. In fairness, I also think that us consumers gain some piece of mind knowing that the all new parts are usually a very satisfactory solution to a problem, albeit at a dear price indeed.

Please post or send me a PM with the name of the dealer involved with your repairs. ED

[max49]

[quote]Originally posted by max49:

Quote:

Final note: Workhorse still thinks the pins and slides should be cleaned and lubed but the dealer dismisses that idea and says it is just an excuse for bad brakes..

I agree, never heard of lubing the slides and pins except when replacing them .
It's a shame for WH owners that WH does'nt seem to be bothered by their reputation getting ruined by the vendors they chose.
The big manufacturers would just 'bite the bullet' and recall all of the W series and fix the brakes 'right' by replacing all of the brake parts.
Some people were all upset about product liability insurance for a simple fuel filter adapter.
It appears that WH can't afford product liability insurance either unless they'd file a claim to save their reputation.
Actia and their faulty brake system, and autopark are problematic for all WH owners.
"Those who have had problems and those that will , repeatedly too"
If WH would just admit they have numerous problems, it would be a first step in the right direction.
Now let's hear from the few 4 leaf clover owners who say they have had no problems
Oh, I have'nt had brake problems but I have a P-32. I think it's a Chevy truck so probably Chevy brakes. Correct me if I'm wrong about this.

[-Gramps-]

I just wish the service center had not tried scare tactics with me. Just be honest and let me make an educated decision. Don't tell me its broke when it isn't. Trust is just as important as the work done itself. I am in the service business myself...I sell parts to fix a problem only when I am sure that part is needed. If I make a mistake about that, I do my best to make sure it is an honest one.

[DriVer]

Quote:

Originally posted by max49: I agree, never heard of lubing the slides and pins except when replacing them.

Max, I've posted this same thing many times over the years and it is a recommended routine maintenance practice. If you were able to attend a Workhorse Service seminar from the folks in the Technical side of things this is exactly what you would hear.

If you come to Myrtle Beach this October I guarantee you that will be one of the topics in the service seminar.

Now Max, we continue to see in your posts that there's nothing wrong with your chassis right now however you certainly have taken on a much deeper role in being a W series activist when you don't have a dog in the fight.

Your brakes are not Chevy brakes by the way, those are indeed genuine Workhorse P series brakes and have been so since 2001.

It would be refreshing if you could own a W series and speak from experience instead of conjecture and 3rd party conversations.

[DriVer]

Quote:

Originally posted by -Gramps-: I just wish the service center had not tried scare tactics with me. Just be honest and let me make an educated decision.

-Gramps-, You do certainly set achievable goals and I am with you in that all your dealership had to do was present the facts about your situation as they were rather than spinning up a worst case scenario.

Your best mechanism to voice your concern would be to "Rate The Dealer" on the workhorse.com website. Alan Stegitch reviews all of those and he will note your concern about this dealership.

[max49]

Quote:

"It would be refreshing if you could own a W series and speak from experience instead of conjecture and 3rd party conversations."

Driver, I'm sorry you don't find my post 'refreshing'. Would it be more refreshing for you if I had brake problems?
I could own a W series if I wanted one bad enough.

I have read enough about the W series brake problem that you can understand why I would be skeptical about buying one. It's obvious from the many posts that there is a problem. I've never had brake problems on any vehicle I've owned til the pads or shoes were wore out, typically @ 60,000 miles or more.
I don't remember reading in my owners manual, on any vehicle I've owned, to lube the brake pins, slides etc at any service interval. Did I miss it?

quote "Your brakes are not Chevy brakes by the way, those are indeed genuine Workhorse P series brakes and have been so since 2001."

Do I basicly have the same brakes as the W series?
Are you saying that I can't get brake parts, rotors, calipers, pads, etc from a GM or Chevy dealer?
If so, this would be a bummer because ' ease of getting replacement parts is a definite plus and the aftermarket companies don't seem to be interested in making WH replacement parts.
WH replacement parts are ridiculously expensive. I've bought new replacement rotors for my Ford Cl C for $36 and new 22.5 drums from the Kenworth dealer for under $100.

[max49]

Speaking of 'refreshing',
how refreshing would it be if WH or their ambassadors would announce that they are recalling all vehicles to fix the brakes and IP cluster, once and for all, at no cost to the owners?

[rebelsbeach]

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[MKCROSS]

Gramps,

My story:

First of all let me note that my W-22 has less than 6000 miles on it. Used regularly on short trips. Garage kept.

I experienced the same problem recently.
Drove my 2004 W-22 about 10 miles to a local campground. On the way I smelt something burning and pulled over. The smell was obviously coming from my left rear wheel well. I could feel the heat radiating upwards. The other wheels seemed fine. I let the brakes cool, and then continued on the remaing 2 miles to the campground. When I arrived, everyone around was telling me the obvious; that my brakes were dragging and burning. I got on the internet, and typed in "Workhorse brake problems". I was amazed at all the posts which came up concerning this problem. I called Workhorse, and the representative told me to take the coach to a dealer to have it inspected. I asked if there was anything I could do to release the brakes and was told I could try to pry the pad away from the rotor but the brakes would drag again as soon as they were applied.

The next morning I crawled under the coach. Everything looked fine. The burnt smell still lingering. I tried to wiggle the pad, but it was very tight against the rotor. On the other wheels, the pads where tight, but I could wiggle them ever so slightly. I did pry on the effected pad. Don't know if it did any good.

The next morning, when we drove the 10 miles home, everything seemed perfect.

I took the coach to my local Workhouse dealer, Coggin Chevrolet At The Avenues, in Jacksonville, Florida and dropped it off. When I received the call from the service department I was shocked. Estimated repairs; over 4 thousand dollars. I was told "ALL 4 CALIPERS SEIZING INTERNALLY, CAUSING DAMAGE. VERIFIED CONCERN. FOUND ALL BRAKES HAD BEEN OVERHEATED, FOUND CALIPERS SEIZING. RECOMMEND REPLACING ALL CALIPERS, PADS, ROTORS, WHEEL SPEED SENSORS, AND SEALS".

I could not believe what I was hearing. I asked the service advisor how could this be, I could understand replacing all components at the left rear, but all four brakes? They seemed fine on the drive home and the drive to the service center!
I was told that this is what the Service Tech discovered, all four wheels damaged. The service department went on to say, they had called Workhorse on my behalf to see if they would offer any assistance with the cost of the repairs. They were told by Bill O'neil, in the warranty department, "It is out of warranty, nothing they can do".
The service department suggested I speak to Workhorse diretly.
I called, and was told "If the dealer has talked to Bill O'neil, then that is the final word. Bill makes the final decision". I asked to speak to Bill myself and was told they would send him an e-mail to call me.

A day or two later I called Winnebago Service Administration. I explained to them that I realized the Workhorse Chassis is covered under a separate warranty. I wanted Winnebago to be aware of the brake problems. I was told, they were indeed aware of it. I asked the Winnebago rep if he would call Bill O'neil and discuss the issue. He agreed.
15 minutes later the Winnebago rep called me and said that he spoke to Bill O'neil. Bill was "reviewing my file" and would call me, but he did not think Workhorse was going to offer any help.
A few minutes later Bill O'neil did call. I pleaded my case. He kept repeating "Out of warranty, can't help you". I referenced the "Special Policy Adjustment Programs Beyond The Warranty Period" section in the Workhorse owners manual. He said that section did not apply. "Out of warranty, can't help you".

Well, to shorten a long story, I approved the repairs. I paid the $4284.32 repair bill. I filed a complaint with the NHTSA.

In my case, I don't know if all the repairs were needed. I did tell the dealer I wanted ALL the original parts, "I would need them when I took Workhorse to court". My thinking here was, if it was discovered that the parts were good, it would show that the dealer was being dishonst. Therfore, if the parts were good, and the dealer knew I would have them, they might reconsider recommending the repairs.
They did not reconsider.
The dealer said they would give me all the "damaged" parts. They proceeded with the repairs.

I have looked at the old parts. They look OK to me, but I'm not a mechanic. No cracks, does not look burned. I don't know?

I have read many posts that tell of people repairing one set of Workhorse brakes, just to have another set fail.

I guess I bought $4000 worth of Peace of Mind (I hope).

Anyway, I think I can sum up my experience with Workhorse brakes this way. Like I told Bill O'neil: There is right and wrong in this world. This Brake issue is just plain wrong!

[rickandcheryl]

I still believe that the brakes on all W22 Workhorse chassis have serious manufacturing defects and need an immediate recall before people get killed. Have been there with brake problems, 39K miles, no brake abuse, pins and calipers serviced as required, "Brake Buddy" ALWAYS used when towing the toad and still all four rotors cracked all the way through. Had to replace the calipers also. Very expensive!