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Old 03-05-2006, 06:38 PM   #1
DriVer is online now
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Join Date: Jan 2000
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Posts: 20,566
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Before we get started just know that, "You can do it and I hope this article helps!" Degree of difficulty on a scale on 1 to 10 is about a 5 or less depending on your mechanical expertise.

The Brazel's UltraPower High Performance Cold Air Intake Kit found its way to our front porch here in South Carolina. "Great!" I said, "Now when am I going to have the time to install the thing?" I was a bit intimidated by the scope of the job initially but as with anything if you do it one step at a time it's like putting together kid's toys on Christmas morning.


Opening in the stock airbox the air filter is removed

Opening up the box the kit was very well packed, thank you guys, and I looked over the parts list which is enclosed in a large manila envelope. Yep everything was there alright. Satisfied that the whole thing was there we left and went to Florida. Boy I said to myself, I wish I could have installed my BUHPCAIK before we got on the road but as always one thing at a time.


The Brazel's High Performance Cold Air Intake Kit

Having returned home from beautiful Palatka, Florida last week we were swamped with routine stuff and a honey-do list about the length of my arm. Last Wednesday I informed my wife that I'm going to be working on the motorhome on Saturday and I would appreciate it if I could have some time to do my upgrade. You guessed it; we had to go shopping for flowery things and baskets for the guest bathroom. Got back at 5:00 o'clock rats! But tomorrow was another day.


Stock intake tube, MAF sensor and back of the air box removed

I sat around this morning banging away on my computer. The sky was regal blue and the temperature was slowly rising up into the low 60s. Perfect! Now where that box of stuff! I went in the garage and started bringing my tools out and box with the kit in it and most importantly my "Total Trolley" that was given to us as a house warming present. I can't begin to tell you how versatile the Total Trolley is but today I used it as a ladder and you will need to stand on the very top step to reach inside the engine compartment for some tasks.


Inside the engine compartment looking at the tuba clamp and the connections to the front of the stock air box.

It would have been nice to install the kit with a friend but since I'm the only one out here that I can depend on I resigned myself that I would install this thing all on my own. The very first thing I did was to jack up the motorhome just about as high as it would go on its jacks. Doing so was a mixed blessing some things were a little out of reach when working on your back but I got er' done.


Removing all the stock intake equipment leaves a huge void under the fender well.

The first thing is to open the 3 clips on the top of the air box and pull the back of the airbox back and slightly upward. Reach in and disengage one side of the brand new air filter and remove and place same along with the foam filter on the ground. Next I removed the connector off of the MAF sensor. This is done by pinching both sides of the connector on the front and back and with a little wiggle and a lift, it came right off. The next step was to disassemble the stock intake tube by loosening all the clamps, there are 3 of them. Once everything is nice and loose I supported the MAF sensor with my left hand and wiggled and pulled slightly on the back of the air box and this disengaged the intake tube off of the intake pipe to the engine. Careful with the MAF sensor, I removed it and placed it out of harms way.


The removed stock intake components. The MAF sensor is the round piece next to the foam filter

The next task is to remove the airbox and the tuba. Reaching inside the engine compartment I backed off on the 2 large hose clamps that hold the hose onto the airbox and the tuba. Continuing, the assembly is fastened to the motorhome using (4) 14mm bolt heads and there is a 10mm screw that secures the band that holds the bottom of the tuba. Removing the bolts has to be done from the top and the bottom. Watch that the whole thing doesn't fall down and smack you in the face. My challenge was that the 2 top bolts came right out no problem but when I yanked on the bottom bolts the 4 tack welds on each nut behind the vertical cross member broke loose on both fasteners. No sweat, where's my 14mm open end wrench? So equipped I was able to hold the nut on the inside of the frame and remove the bolts. The airbox is now loose however the entire assembly is somewhat too large to be removed from the available openings. Loosening and removing the band screw allows the assembly to be broken down into smaller pieces and removing the box and tuba was not somewhat easier. Everything came out from the hood opening.


Lot of room here. Cleared space looks very weird without the ol' tuba. Radiator cap is now visible.

Ta-da! No more stock airbox filter and all that stuff. There's just big empty space. One big plus as well is that I now have unlimited access to the radiator cap. Previously it was hiding behind the tuba. Now which comes first? The chicken or the egg ... err never mind that, where's the instructions. First things first. Locate the new plastic cold air tube, 4x2" hose adapter, (2) #64 hose clamps and the lil' ol' MAF sensor. Make sure when you put the MAF sensor back that the arrow points toward the engine, look for direction of flow. I fit the entire assembly together loosely and tried to figure out how that whole pile of stuff would fit in there. I was at an impasse since I believed that the new airbox had to mount back on the vertical frame but once I knew that it wasn't going to happen that way I came inside the house, brought up my trust ol' iRV2.com and checked out the pictures that were previously posted. There it was a fastener on the front bottom of the box clearly visible. That's the ticket! Now between steps 13 and 14 I wasn't able to make the whole thing work as written so I removed the box and the cold air tube assembly BUT I left the MAF in place in the feed tube that runs into the engine. I placed the air box on the pad and I was finally able to push the cold air tube into the air box. The effort required to push the tube into the box is best done when the airbox is on the ground instead of floating around on the frame.


Setting the new air box and intake plumbing everything is loose. Scribe the 2 holes in the bottom of the airbox with an awl through the bumper.

Now having the tube in the air box I repositioned the airbox forward and on the front cross member which I knew to be the front bumper. Now fitting the intake tube into the MAF tube was a lot easier. Remember all that plumbing has to stay somewhat loose until the next step is completed. What you have to do now is to rotate the intake tube while positioning the air box as flat as possible on the front bumper. Not surprisingly you'll find to pre-drilled ¼" holes on the top of the bumper. Once you are satisfied with the positioning of the air box and the intake tubes are oriented properly you need to get on your back with an ice pick and scribe 2 holes in the air box through those ¼" holes in the bumper.


Mounting hardware installed in the new air box. Note SS hardware. The air box faces the back of the headlamp.

Jeepers, all that work simply to take the entire assembly out again but a necessary step. Get your drill and install 2 - ¼" holes in the air box in the positions you previously scribed. I used a pilot drill first and then I went with the ¼" drill. Repositioning the air box with the intake tube into the MAF sensor tube was a whole lot easier the second time around. The holes that were drilled lined up perfectly with the holes in the bumper. The air box is held in place by (2) ¼" bolts, (4) fender washers and (2) nylon lock nuts. Tighten same and inspect the intake tubes one final time before tightening up the hose clamps on the intake tube and MAF sensor. The position of the MAF Sensor socket should be as close to 12 o'clock as possible just like it was. Connect the modular plug back into the MAF sensor. You will see where the harness has been bent for quite some time now so you won't put the plug in backward. Now were getting down to the business end of the air box - the huge "conehead", 8 layer, pre-oiled, air filter..... Now where'd I put that thing?


The 2 bolts I installed to stabilize the installation of the air filter on the air intake pipe in the air box.

OK so now I have the filter with clamp and I climbed up my trolley and placed the filter inside the box and I said to myself piece of cake all I have to do is get the filter base over the intake tube. This way and that way and again and again there was no way in the world that I was going to get this filter on. When I pushed on the tube with the filter base the intake tube would move and it became impossible to install the filter. So here I am by myself what do I do to resolve this? Inspecting the back of the flange on the intake tube there were 3 holes. I figured that if I can get at least 2 bolts in those holes that it should be able to hold the intake tube in the air box. Now the trouble was I didn't have any ¼"x20 - 1 ½" bolts in stock so I had to drop everything and run out to Lowes and buy some hardware. I tried to get SS hardware but no 1 ½" bolts go figure so I went with zinc plate grade 5 hardware. Since we're not really tying a lot of weight here I got some flanged hex nuts that have serrations built into the base of the nut. I also picked up 4 - ¼" hard flats and I was good to go. $3 later I was on my way back to the house.


Air box installed and clear cover fitted with SS hardware, the job is just about all done. Note the hardware mounting the box to the bumper. Note the slight gap between the vertical frame and the side of the box

I got my drill and from the rear of the air box I drilled 2 holes one at about 4 o'clock and another to the left at about 7 o'clock. Now using a combination on needle nose pliers and mini vise grips I was able to tighten the 2 new bolts. OK so now where's that air filter again? Up the ladder one more time, insert the filter in the box opening, orient the back to the intake tube, a little push and twist and there you go. It went on so easy with but a little bit of a bump as it cleared the lip on the intake tube. I twisted the filter a bit more, brought the hex nut up toward the top of the intake tube and I was able to tighten the hose clamp using a ¼" nut driver.


The Cold Air Tube set in place and clamps tightened. Note the mounting hardware to the air box. Tie wrap fitted to MAF cable. Position MAF close to TDC.

The final step was to install the clear Plexiglas top on the airbox using the provided SS hardware. A stubby #2 Phillips driver is required but if you can't find yours you can use a ¼" socket and a #2 Phillips bit on a 1/4" drive ratchet. Well there it is! All done! Err not yet, what's this little rubber hose laying on the ground. OH it's the drain hose off of the air conditioner box. I took a look at the bare nipple on the bottom of the box and fitted the drain hose but wait! If I put that hose back in the same position all that drain-water would fall directly down on the top of my new air box clear cover. Well I'm not having any of that! Looking over the hose there was an insert with a smaller hole in it so I slit the hose up the side and removed the nozzle insert. I found a piece of ½" reinforced water line in my stuff and tried it out for size and it fit perfectly over to the nipple on the air conditioner drain. So I wrapped the insert with a number of turns with Teflon tape and inserted it one end of the hose and secured it with a T&B tie warp. I installed the hose over the nipple in the AC box and there it was! Finally now I'm finished. The water will now drain through the hose on the ground and not on top of the air box.


Rerouting the AC drain line away from the top of the new BHPCAIK's Plexiglas Cover

Now here's the defining moment will the MAF sensor SES out? Will the thing work? What if yadda-yadda - shut up and start the engine! Vroooom! No problem started right up, and as I sat there I didn't hear any objectionable noises at idle. Now when I got my foot into it was like Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, the engine jumped to life like I have never previously experienced. The engine's throttle response appeared to be immediate and with authority. A brief turbine type sound was faintly heard but nothing at all objectionable. There's big difference in raw sound energy at this point I can tell you that. The stock intake system muffles the sound quite a lot and it's somewhat sedate for a high energy, stallion inspired, Workhorse but the new Brazel's High Performance Cold Air Intake Kit seems to have unleashed the ol' horse and I'm sure that once on the road it'll prove itself out both in mileage gains and horsepower available on demand.


Your Safety is Our Goal
UltraPower Engine Products
3912 Harrison Ave
Centralia, WA 98531
360-736-9494
877-786-1576

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">"Call either Mike or Steve and let them know that you would like your own BHPCAIK"</span>

Stay tuned for a test drive report as we leave again next week for points south. I expect that my expectations will be exceeded.

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Old 03-05-2006, 06:38 PM   #2
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Blog Entries: 66
Before we get started just know that, "You can do it and I hope this article helps!" Degree of difficulty on a scale on 1 to 10 is about a 5 or less depending on your mechanical expertise.

The Brazel's UltraPower High Performance Cold Air Intake Kit found its way to our front porch here in South Carolina. "Great!" I said, "Now when am I going to have the time to install the thing?" I was a bit intimidated by the scope of the job initially but as with anything if you do it one step at a time it's like putting together kid's toys on Christmas morning.


Opening in the stock airbox the air filter is removed

Opening up the box the kit was very well packed, thank you guys, and I looked over the parts list which is enclosed in a large manila envelope. Yep everything was there alright. Satisfied that the whole thing was there we left and went to Florida. Boy I said to myself, I wish I could have installed my BUHPCAIK before we got on the road but as always one thing at a time.


The Brazel's High Performance Cold Air Intake Kit

Having returned home from beautiful Palatka, Florida last week we were swamped with routine stuff and a honey-do list about the length of my arm. Last Wednesday I informed my wife that I'm going to be working on the motorhome on Saturday and I would appreciate it if I could have some time to do my upgrade. You guessed it; we had to go shopping for flowery things and baskets for the guest bathroom. Got back at 5:00 o'clock rats! But tomorrow was another day.


Stock intake tube, MAF sensor and back of the air box removed

I sat around this morning banging away on my computer. The sky was regal blue and the temperature was slowly rising up into the low 60s. Perfect! Now where that box of stuff! I went in the garage and started bringing my tools out and box with the kit in it and most importantly my "Total Trolley" that was given to us as a house warming present. I can't begin to tell you how versatile the Total Trolley is but today I used it as a ladder and you will need to stand on the very top step to reach inside the engine compartment for some tasks.


Inside the engine compartment looking at the tuba clamp and the connections to the front of the stock air box.

It would have been nice to install the kit with a friend but since I'm the only one out here that I can depend on I resigned myself that I would install this thing all on my own. The very first thing I did was to jack up the motorhome just about as high as it would go on its jacks. Doing so was a mixed blessing some things were a little out of reach when working on your back but I got er' done.


Removing all the stock intake equipment leaves a huge void under the fender well.

The first thing is to open the 3 clips on the top of the air box and pull the back of the airbox back and slightly upward. Reach in and disengage one side of the brand new air filter and remove and place same along with the foam filter on the ground. Next I removed the connector off of the MAF sensor. This is done by pinching both sides of the connector on the front and back and with a little wiggle and a lift, it came right off. The next step was to disassemble the stock intake tube by loosening all the clamps, there are 3 of them. Once everything is nice and loose I supported the MAF sensor with my left hand and wiggled and pulled slightly on the back of the air box and this disengaged the intake tube off of the intake pipe to the engine. Careful with the MAF sensor, I removed it and placed it out of harms way.


The removed stock intake components. The MAF sensor is the round piece next to the foam filter

The next task is to remove the airbox and the tuba. Reaching inside the engine compartment I backed off on the 2 large hose clamps that hold the hose onto the airbox and the tuba. Continuing, the assembly is fastened to the motorhome using (4) 14mm bolt heads and there is a 10mm screw that secures the band that holds the bottom of the tuba. Removing the bolts has to be done from the top and the bottom. Watch that the whole thing doesn't fall down and smack you in the face. My challenge was that the 2 top bolts came right out no problem but when I yanked on the bottom bolts the 4 tack welds on each nut behind the vertical cross member broke loose on both fasteners. No sweat, where's my 14mm open end wrench? So equipped I was able to hold the nut on the inside of the frame and remove the bolts. The airbox is now loose however the entire assembly is somewhat too large to be removed from the available openings. Loosening and removing the band screw allows the assembly to be broken down into smaller pieces and removing the box and tuba was not somewhat easier. Everything came out from the hood opening.


Lot of room here. Cleared space looks very weird without the ol' tuba. Radiator cap is now visible.

Ta-da! No more stock airbox filter and all that stuff. There's just big empty space. One big plus as well is that I now have unlimited access to the radiator cap. Previously it was hiding behind the tuba. Now which comes first? The chicken or the egg ... err never mind that, where's the instructions. First things first. Locate the new plastic cold air tube, 4x2" hose adapter, (2) #64 hose clamps and the lil' ol' MAF sensor. Make sure when you put the MAF sensor back that the arrow points toward the engine, look for direction of flow. I fit the entire assembly together loosely and tried to figure out how that whole pile of stuff would fit in there. I was at an impasse since I believed that the new airbox had to mount back on the vertical frame but once I knew that it wasn't going to happen that way I came inside the house, brought up my trust ol' iRV2.com and checked out the pictures that were previously posted. There it was a fastener on the front bottom of the box clearly visible. That's the ticket! Now between steps 13 and 14 I wasn't able to make the whole thing work as written so I removed the box and the cold air tube assembly BUT I left the MAF in place in the feed tube that runs into the engine. I placed the air box on the pad and I was finally able to push the cold air tube into the air box. The effort required to push the tube into the box is best done when the airbox is on the ground instead of floating around on the frame.


Setting the new air box and intake plumbing everything is loose. Scribe the 2 holes in the bottom of the airbox with an awl through the bumper.

Now having the tube in the air box I repositioned the airbox forward and on the front cross member which I knew to be the front bumper. Now fitting the intake tube into the MAF tube was a lot easier. Remember all that plumbing has to stay somewhat loose until the next step is completed. What you have to do now is to rotate the intake tube while positioning the air box as flat as possible on the front bumper. Not surprisingly you'll find to pre-drilled ¼" holes on the top of the bumper. Once you are satisfied with the positioning of the air box and the intake tubes are oriented properly you need to get on your back with an ice pick and scribe 2 holes in the air box through those ¼" holes in the bumper.


Mounting hardware installed in the new air box. Note SS hardware. The air box faces the back of the headlamp.

Jeepers, all that work simply to take the entire assembly out again but a necessary step. Get your drill and install 2 - ¼" holes in the air box in the positions you previously scribed. I used a pilot drill first and then I went with the ¼" drill. Repositioning the air box with the intake tube into the MAF sensor tube was a whole lot easier the second time around. The holes that were drilled lined up perfectly with the holes in the bumper. The air box is held in place by (2) ¼" bolts, (4) fender washers and (2) nylon lock nuts. Tighten same and inspect the intake tubes one final time before tightening up the hose clamps on the intake tube and MAF sensor. The position of the MAF Sensor socket should be as close to 12 o'clock as possible just like it was. Connect the modular plug back into the MAF sensor. You will see where the harness has been bent for quite some time now so you won't put the plug in backward. Now were getting down to the business end of the air box - the huge "conehead", 8 layer, pre-oiled, air filter..... Now where'd I put that thing?


The 2 bolts I installed to stabilize the installation of the air filter on the air intake pipe in the air box.

OK so now I have the filter with clamp and I climbed up my trolley and placed the filter inside the box and I said to myself piece of cake all I have to do is get the filter base over the intake tube. This way and that way and again and again there was no way in the world that I was going to get this filter on. When I pushed on the tube with the filter base the intake tube would move and it became impossible to install the filter. So here I am by myself what do I do to resolve this? Inspecting the back of the flange on the intake tube there were 3 holes. I figured that if I can get at least 2 bolts in those holes that it should be able to hold the intake tube in the air box. Now the trouble was I didn't have any ¼"x20 - 1 ½" bolts in stock so I had to drop everything and run out to Lowes and buy some hardware. I tried to get SS hardware but no 1 ½" bolts go figure so I went with zinc plate grade 5 hardware. Since we're not really tying a lot of weight here I got some flanged hex nuts that have serrations built into the base of the nut. I also picked up 4 - ¼" hard flats and I was good to go. $3 later I was on my way back to the house.


Air box installed and clear cover fitted with SS hardware, the job is just about all done. Note the hardware mounting the box to the bumper. Note the slight gap between the vertical frame and the side of the box

I got my drill and from the rear of the air box I drilled 2 holes one at about 4 o'clock and another to the left at about 7 o'clock. Now using a combination on needle nose pliers and mini vise grips I was able to tighten the 2 new bolts. OK so now where's that air filter again? Up the ladder one more time, insert the filter in the box opening, orient the back to the intake tube, a little push and twist and there you go. It went on so easy with but a little bit of a bump as it cleared the lip on the intake tube. I twisted the filter a bit more, brought the hex nut up toward the top of the intake tube and I was able to tighten the hose clamp using a ¼" nut driver.


The Cold Air Tube set in place and clamps tightened. Note the mounting hardware to the air box. Tie wrap fitted to MAF cable. Position MAF close to TDC.

The final step was to install the clear Plexiglas top on the airbox using the provided SS hardware. A stubby #2 Phillips driver is required but if you can't find yours you can use a ¼" socket and a #2 Phillips bit on a 1/4" drive ratchet. Well there it is! All done! Err not yet, what's this little rubber hose laying on the ground. OH it's the drain hose off of the air conditioner box. I took a look at the bare nipple on the bottom of the box and fitted the drain hose but wait! If I put that hose back in the same position all that drain-water would fall directly down on the top of my new air box clear cover. Well I'm not having any of that! Looking over the hose there was an insert with a smaller hole in it so I slit the hose up the side and removed the nozzle insert. I found a piece of ½" reinforced water line in my stuff and tried it out for size and it fit perfectly over to the nipple on the air conditioner drain. So I wrapped the insert with a number of turns with Teflon tape and inserted it one end of the hose and secured it with a T&B tie warp. I installed the hose over the nipple in the AC box and there it was! Finally now I'm finished. The water will now drain through the hose on the ground and not on top of the air box.


Rerouting the AC drain line away from the top of the new BHPCAIK's Plexiglas Cover

Now here's the defining moment will the MAF sensor SES out? Will the thing work? What if yadda-yadda - shut up and start the engine! Vroooom! No problem started right up, and as I sat there I didn't hear any objectionable noises at idle. Now when I got my foot into it was like Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, the engine jumped to life like I have never previously experienced. The engine's throttle response appeared to be immediate and with authority. A brief turbine type sound was faintly heard but nothing at all objectionable. There's big difference in raw sound energy at this point I can tell you that. The stock intake system muffles the sound quite a lot and it's somewhat sedate for a high energy, stallion inspired, Workhorse but the new Brazel's High Performance Cold Air Intake Kit seems to have unleashed the ol' horse and I'm sure that once on the road it'll prove itself out both in mileage gains and horsepower available on demand.


Your Safety is Our Goal
UltraPower Engine Products
3912 Harrison Ave
Centralia, WA 98531
360-736-9494
877-786-1576

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">"Call either Mike or Steve and let them know that you would like your own BHPCAIK"</span>

Stay tuned for a test drive report as we leave again next week for points south. I expect that my expectations will be exceeded.

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Old 03-05-2006, 07:07 PM   #3
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What's their delivered price if I may ask?
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Old 03-05-2006, 07:51 PM   #4
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by abarkl:
What's their delivered price if I may ask? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Call the number above and ask them. They should be there at 8:00am Pacific ST. Tell them DriVer sent you from you know where.
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Old 03-06-2006, 07:18 AM   #5
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DriVer , A JOB well done what are we to expect coming from a man with your talents. Being the dummy I'am after looking at that large horn for three years what drives the air now since its removal, into that "small" box
Thanks for the easy install for us with the detail you put into it. '007'
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Old 03-06-2006, 08:16 AM   #6
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Thank you Driver. Fantastic job.
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Old 03-06-2006, 12:33 PM   #7
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Hey DriVer,

Great job! It looks just like mine and it was installed by the Brazel Boys. You better be careful though; with your talents someone may try to put you to work.
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Old 03-06-2006, 05:28 PM   #8
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Great Post DriVer Thanks

As you well know I am going to have my MH done at Brazel's in August and I would love to have the cold air system installed (or I may do it myself) and than have them do the rest of the Ultrapower Performance..

However my concern is I live in California and Smogging is my question. Do you have any idea if it will pass smog or not?

Thanks again for the indepth post
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Old 03-06-2006, 05:32 PM   #9
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Lee,

The CARB(California Air Resource Board) approval is on it's way,it just takes awile.(beaurocrats)
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Old 03-06-2006, 06:02 PM   #10
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Mike can you answer this dummies question how do you move the same volume of air thru your small box, instead of having that tuba we have now? "007"
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Old 03-06-2006, 06:37 PM   #11
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brazels RV Performance:
Lee,

The CARB(California Air Resource Board) approval is on it's way,it just takes awile.(beaurocrats) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Mike.....

I have a feeling I will need it. Not this year but next year... Without being able to get smogged I will not be able to do it You know cooperative the State of Califorina is
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Old 03-06-2006, 06:49 PM   #12
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Mr.Bond,

Actually it flows 73% more air at the same throttle positions.It does this by being much less restrictive.Less parts,less diameter changes equals more air in.
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Old 03-07-2006, 05:30 AM   #13
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brazels RV
Actually it flows 73% more air at the same throttle positions.It does this by being much less restrictive.Less parts,less diameter changes equals more air in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>..... and may I also offer at least 1 less bend or change of direction in the airflow and like you said the plumbing is more constant and less restrictive in diameter from the filter through to the MAF sensor.
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Old 03-07-2006, 06:10 AM   #14
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I have a question about the K&N filter. The kit Looks good and reduces the number of inline bend and components. But the Tuba air intake is still a cold air system. Right? Also, K&N sells a replacement filter for the 8.1, I'm just wondering how much advantage the kit has over the stock intake with a K&N filter installed? Maybe Brazels has tested it both ways??
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