Chipped Workhorse 8.1 Engine Failure

[BoundPainter]

At 35363 miles I had a chip program installed on my 2003 Bounder on a Workhorse chassis. As I drove into Las Vegas 5907 miles later I heard a rattle in the engine. Took it to Findlay RV and they found a code set for cylinder 5. No ‘Check Engine’ light. Disassembly found pistons 5 and 7 burned and cylinder walls scored beyond repair. Problem possibly caused by ‘lean burn’. Chip manufacturer says program does not alter fuel/air ratio and chassis people say it’s not engine problem. Engine replaced with Jasper engine. Am I the only one out $16K?

[Mekanic]

What was the reason for the reprogram in the first place??
Was it supposed to solve a power/MPG issue?

[96 Wideglide]

Hmmmmmm.

If it does'nt change the air / fuel mixture, then what does it do ?

[Mekanic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 96 Wideglide Hmmmmmm. If it does'nt change the air / fuel mixture, then what does it do ?

Thats what I was thinking myself.

[Sammie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoundPainter At 35363 miles I had a chip program installed on my 2003 Bounder on a Workhorse chassis. As I drove into Las Vegas 5907 miles later I heard a rattle in the engine. Took it to Findlay RV and they found a code set for cylinder 5. No ‘Check Engine’ light. Disassembly found pistons 5 and 7 burned and cylinder walls scored beyond repair. Problem possibly caused by ‘lean burn’. Chip manufacturer says program does not alter fuel/air ratio and chassis people say it’s not engine problem. Engine replaced with Jasper engine. Am I the only one out $16K?

Go to the Workhorse Forum and ask this question. There are several others who have had similar engine problems and it seems that cylinders 5 and 7 are usually the most problematic.

Sammie

[BoundPainter]

.5-2 MPG Increase on Average!

•

80 Hp & 100 ft. lbs Torque Increase!

•

Maximize Your Banks System by Custom Tuning!

•

All Reprogramming is VIN Specific

•

Life-time Warranty!

•

100% Satisfaction Guarantee!

But I'm not!

The 'improvements' are for the GM engines. For the first 35K miles the MPG was 7.65. For the last 5900 it was 7.27. So much for 5.2 MPG increase!

[Mekanic]

80HP & 100 foot lbs???!!!! seriously? did it come with a turbo??

[UFO Pilot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoundPainter .5-2 MPG Increase on Average! • The 'improvements' are for the GM engines. For the first 35K miles the MPG was 7.65. For the last 5900 it was 7.27. So much for 5.2 MPG increase!

I believe that is 1/2 to 2 MPG increase. My MPG stayed about the same but the HP increase was obvious.

["007"]

Welcome to irv2 Boundpainter.
I have heard of the 8.1 ECM reprogrammed for better MPG and more horse power, never a chip placed only in the Ford engines.
Had my ECM programed back in 05 by Brazels and have much improved mileage and power and its paid for itself with the higher gas prices now.
The number 5 & 7 pistons have had allot of plug wires burnt problems because of poor ventilation in engine compartment mostly caused by the coach box mfg.
How is your new engine working out now?

[Mr_D]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoundPainter Maximize Your Banks System by Custom Tuning!

Why would you add anything to the Banks KIT? It's already optimized and nothing more should be required or used!

[edgray]

BoundPainter: First let me say welcome to iRV2.com. Then let me say how sorry I am to read about your disasterous experience with "chipping" your engine. You did not say which "chip" you had installed, but you did post that it came with a 100% satisfaction gaurantee and that you were not, apparently because you are out some big bucks for the repairs. So.....can you elaborate?

Not that it will be any comfort to you, but others should know that both GM and WCC came out with bulletins regarding aftermarket mods back in 2007. Here is the text of the one issued by WCC:

WORKHORSE CUSTOM CHASSIS SERVICE BULLETIN


BULLETIN NO: 60701-T April, 2007

BULLETIN TYPE: Technical

SUBJECT: Aftermarket Engine System Modifications

MODELS: All models





This bulletin applies to all Engines but is most specific to 8.1 gasoline engines used in Motorhomes. Most Commercial and Fleet owners do not allow engine system modifications as they better understand the negative results that are possible.

All Workhorse Custom Chassis powertrain systems are certified to meet certain Government emission and durability requirements. It is an extensive, complex and expensive process. The exhaust system, intake system, cooling system, electrical system (including calibration), fuel system, and driveline are all involved in the certification of a powertrain combination. The certification process includes extensive testing and test reporting to certain government Regulatory Departments. Design changes in a powertrain combination require re-certification to assure that the system meets both government and Workhorse Custom Chassis requirements.

Powertrain certification is a joint effort between Workhorse Custom Chassis and the engine manufacturer. The engine is tuned and calibrated to provide maximum economy and durability while meeting regulated emission standards

Any change to the various systems outlined above can result in changed emissions and can cause major engine failure and/or damage to engine emissions control system components. Also, changes can result in lumination of the check engine warning light with false component failure codes. Common false codes caused by aftermarket changes involve the Mass Air Flow sensor or Oxygen sensors as these two sensors are most involved in measuring possible emissions system failure.

Any base engine or engine emissions system component damage or false codes caused by aftermarket changes will not be warranted by Workhorse Custom Chassis.




The following are considered aftermarket installations that can cause engine or emission system damage:

• Any change in PCM, TCM or ECM calibrations.
• Any change or modifications to the engines exhaust system.
• Any change or modification to the air cleaner or intake system.
• Driveline modifications such as changing the rear axle ratio.
• Wiring modifications that could alter the operation of engine control system.
• Installation of emissions components that alter original calibrations.
• Improper flushing of engine crankcase.
• Excessive or improper fuel or oil additives.
• Any modification to fuel tank, pump, or other fuel system component.

Workhorse Custom Chassis Dealers should never change a powertrain system design or calibration. Such action could result in major fines from the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency).

Customers that have modifications made by outside shops should be informed that the changes most often do not provide any significant benefit in fuel mileage and power without resulting in major calibration changes that are detrimental to engine durability and certified emissions control. Damages caused by these changes will not be covered by warranty.

Dealers that suspect that engine or emission damage may be caused by system modification as described above, should contact TAC for resolution. Following are examples where dealer should contact TAC:

· On cases where there is major engine damage, the PCM should not be modified or re-programmed. It should be retained for possible return for electronic analysis to see if calibrations have been changed.
· On cases with repeat Mass Air Flow or O2 sensor codes.
· On cases where there are repeat emission control component replacement.
· On cases where there are repeat check engine codes with no problem found.
· On cases where oil consumption is excessive. (more than one quart per 100 gallons of fuel on gasoline engines)
· Any other suspect case.

GM is the supplier of all current and past Workhorse Custom Chassis Gasoline Engines. Attached is GM Bulletin #04-06-04-054-(01/11/2007) that addresses this same subject. Workhorse Custom Chassis will adopt the GM policies outlined in this bulletin.


A search of this forum will yeild several threads about this issue. Many of our members have opted to have various forms of ECM modifications made, and most have posted they are pleased with the changes. Unfortunately, your experience is apparently the opposite. I guess it is a case of you pay your money and take your chances. I'm sure someone will bring up the existance of the Magnason-Moss act which provides for the protection of "aftermarket" suppliers by requiring OEMs like GM to "prove" the mods caused the failure before denying warranty coverage for a failure, but I did not sense you were covered by an OEM warranty when this failure occurred.

I'm reminded about a sign in one of my favorite restaurants here which says:
"Many have eaten here, few have died." But that is little consolation to those who did, I guess.
Ed

[MntDriver]

If the "Chip" was an Ultrapower ECM tune, Brazels will PAY for your replacement engine if it fails! At least that was the response here on this forum a couple years ago from Mike Bronzini at Brazels, but I hear he is not employed there anymore, so who knows.

[BoundPainter]

Thanks to edgray and Mtndriver for the replys. Interestingly, the program was installed at the 2010 Workhorse Rally in Desert Palms, CA and the installer and program developer so far have just provided a stock programmed ECM. While the engine replacement was over $13K, the program was another $1756. The only offer from either is a free alignment or lube. The install did include new spark plug wires so weak wires should not have been the the lean burn condition. If Workhorse issued a bulletin in 2007 it wasn't provided to owners - at least not me, and they knew who owned their chassis. Nothing was said at the rally.

[MntDriver]

Brazel RV - Mike Bronzini

Here is one of the many threads that Brazels, and the representative from Brazels (at the time), Mike Bronzini gauranteed the ECM so much as to replace the complete engine. The engine in this thread had a #7 piston failure. (I have noticed "Mike Bronzini's" name is now missing from any "Brazel's RV Performance" posts, and is now replaced with "Chris Leach", but all these previous posts were actually Mike posting.)

There are many other older threads in this forum that "Mike Bronzini", as representing Brazels, stated Brazels would replace the engine if the ECM tune caused the failure. I'm thrilled to have received my refund on the Ultrapower last year, as I had no doubt that Mike wouldn't be there long, and the "gaurantee" would become non-existant.

You definately should be able to AT LEAST get a complete ECM tune refund from Brazels, as what exactly is their gaurantee worth?