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Old 01-18-2008, 06:52 AM   #57
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Quote:
driver "I have "never" discounted your continued NTHSA flag waving as silly." So thank you for that comment.
nthsa flag waving as silly. no not flag waving. unlike you who blame brake problems on our driving habits, or not maintaining our equip, ect, ect, I let them know that nthsa is investigating the w22/20 and if they have a problem to report it. I would think someone in your position would do the same. every time someone comes to this site with a brake problem you give them the standard wh response.I have answered all of your questions, now tell me what I have done wrong to cause my brake problems. not that I want your opinion, Im just curious to what you will blame it on now. I dont expect you to answer that question but I just hope this problem gets corrected before its to late.IMO
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Old 01-18-2008, 08:35 AM   #58
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Its a good thing the emergency brake works off the driveshaft.
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Old 01-18-2008, 01:23 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spoonman:
Blaming the consumer for these problems will eventually drive them elsewhere.
Suggesting that an effective routine maintenance program can extend the service life of your equipment can make more friends than enemies.
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Old 01-18-2008, 01:37 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by jdsr:
I let them know that nthsa is investigating the w22/20 and if they have a problem to report it. I would think someone in your position would do the same.
Why then have all the iRV2 members that I met here in Tampa at the Workhorse display thank me for the information that I continue to provide on the board?

I think your one-line message is uninspiring since it is basically the only thing you have to say.

Every time someone comes to this site I try very hard to understand the problem and offer a solution. Your message is if you have a brake problem notify the NTHSA.

I am always going to err on the side of consumer safety. If the NTHSA determines and or finds a definite problem then we can move forward to resolve it. In the mean time please forgive me if I continue to offer remedy and preventative maintenance suggestions so that our members can be proactive in their own favor to help prevent brake problems.

Quote:
I dont expect you to answer that question...
jdsr, Nothing gives me more pleasure than to answer your questions. Now if you can control your inherent need to editorialize everything I say perhaps there is a question in there someplace.
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Old 01-18-2008, 05:08 PM   #61
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Why then have all the iRV2 members that I met here in Tampa at the Workhorse display thank me for the information that I continue to provide on the board?
I met DriVer at the show this week and told him I appreciate the informative information he provides us here on this forum and I also feel if one of us needed an advocate he would go to bat for anyone of us. IMHO!
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Old 01-18-2008, 05:26 PM   #62
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[quote]Originally posted by DriVer:
RVs are not commercial vehicles. They are typically driven from point A to B and then they sit "perhaps" for weeks or months at a time. This is not the typical profile for a commercial vehicle.
The company I work for has at least 3 times more vehicles than they do people. The only maintenance I've ever seen them do to brakes is pull a wheel to see if they need new pads or shoes. Some of the trucks sit all year without being used. Heck we have one or two that have'nt been used more than once or twice in the 10 years I've been there.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I Are you saying unequivacally that Freightliner, Spartan, Roadmaster, Ford and anyone else in the RV chassis busines "do not have" brake maintenance routines?

Did I say that? I have no idea.
I did say the only maintenance I've done to brakes is to replace the pads, shoes and If I waited to long, turn or replace the rotors.

I've never seen any mechanic at any company I've worked for change the brake fluid or lube the pins unless they were also changing the pads/shoes, and the brake fluid was contaminated.

Quote:
What is the difference between the W-20, 22 brakes and the P-32 brakes?
Max the differences are detailed in the FREE on-line Workhorse Motorhome Chassis Guide which I believe you already have. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh thanks Driver, I see the P-32 has the JF9 system, the W20/22 have the JLP system and the W24 has the JL9 system. Also the P-32 has a 3 channel antilock brakings system while the W series has a 4 channel braking system.
I hope this tell you guys something because it means nothing to me but it sounds like most of the problems are with the JLP system.
Unlike others who say cracked rotors caused by overheating are operator error or lack of maintenance, my first guess would be dective calipers that are not releasing completely. This problem will compound as the rotors get warped from the heat, as they will scuff more and harder as warped section passes between the pads. They should still push out if the calipers are working right and it can push the fluid back to the master cylinder.
If I was having this problem and had to pay for it myself , I'd be checking to see if their was different aftermarket capipers to put on.
It probably does'nt help much but I am still in the habit of reaching down with my foot and pulling up on the brake pedal once in a while just feel if it seems to be releasing completely.
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Old 01-18-2008, 07:32 PM   #63
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quote:
Originally posted by oemtech:
They have closed the original investigation (PE07032)and opened a new engineering evaluation.
NHTSA Action Number : EA07016 NHTSA Recall Campaign Number : N/A
Make / Models : Model/Build Years:
WORKHORSE / W20 2000-2005
WORKHORSE / W22 2000-2005
WORKHORSE / W24 2004-2005
Manufacturer : WORKHORSE CUSTOM CHASSIS
Component :
SERVICE BRAKES, HYDRAULIC
Date Investigation Opened : November 16, 2007
Date Investigation Closed : Open


I thought the narative summary of the current NHTSA report was interesting to show the scope and depth of the investigation.
Here is a copy of the text (I changed all upper case to all lower case to make it easier to read):

Summary:
"On june 25, 2007, the office of defects investigation (odi) opened a preliminary evaluation to investigate alleged overheating disc brake calipers and poor brake performance in model year (my) 2000-2005 workhorse chassis recreational vehicles. To date, odi is aware of 651 non-duplicative complaints on the subject vehicles combining both odi and workhorse's complaint population. During the pe, odi discovered that the problem is most pronounced on the w20 and w22 chassis, both equipped with bosch hydraulic brake systems. The w24 chassis uses a different brake system and is being examined as a peer to the complaint vehicles. Odi's analysis of the warranty and complaint data supplied by workhorse during the pe indicates a dramatic drop in brake related complaints on vehicles built after may 2004. At that time workhorse added in production zerk fittings and grease lubrication to the brake master cylinder's bell crank linkage. Odi is aware of 3,782 unique warranty counts related to the allege defect for the subject population. Of those claims, 88 were submitted on vehicles produced after the may 2004 production change. During the engineering analysis, odi and vrtc will conduct a vehicle testing program to inspect complaint vehicles and evaluate various mechanical functions of the vehicle's brake system. Attempts will be made to duplicate the braking problems being alleged and to determine the root cause. Accordingly, this investigation has been upgraded to an engineering analysis to further study the frequency and scope of the alleged defect."

driver states: I am always going to err on the side of consumer safety. If the NTHSA determines and or finds a definite problem then we can move forward to resolve it. DRIVER , lets see how concerned you are for our safety. on the opening page of this site there are 5 or 6 topics that are always there, you know in big bold letters. I think this would be a great place to post the above info. may I suggest the title be, nhtsa opens new campaign on w22/20/24. you could also give the toll free #888-327-4236. just a thought, it sure would be easy for you to do.
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:03 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by jdsr:
quote:
Summary:
"On june 25, 2007, the office of defects investigation (odi) opened a preliminary evaluation to investigate alleged overheating disc brake calipers and poor brake performance in model year (my) 2000-2005 workhorse chassis recreational vehicles. To date, odi is aware of 651 non-duplicative complaints on the subject vehicles combining both odi and workhorse's complaint population. During the pe, odi discovered that the problem is most pronounced on the w20 and w22 chassis, both equipped with bosch hydraulic brake systems. The w24 chassis uses a different brake system and is being examined as a peer to the complaint vehicles. Odi's analysis of the warranty and complaint data supplied by workhorse during the pe indicates a dramatic drop in brake related complaints on vehicles built after may 2004. At that time workhorse added in production zerk fittings and grease lubrication to the brake master cylinder's bell crank linkage. Odi is aware of 3,782 unique warranty counts related to the allege defect for the subject population. Of those claims, 88 were submitted on vehicles produced after the may 2004 production change. During the engineering analysis, odi and vrtc will conduct a vehicle testing program to inspect complaint vehicles and evaluate various mechanical functions of the vehicle's brake system. Attempts will be made to duplicate the braking problems being alleged and to determine the root cause. Accordingly, this investigation has been upgraded to an engineering analysis to further study the frequency and scope of the alleged defect."
I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but reading the above, it sure looks like this could be a bigger problem then some have thought. (To date, odi is aware of 651 non-duplicative complaints on the subject vehicles combining both odi and workhorse's complaint population. Odi is aware of 3,782 unique warranty counts related to the allege defect for the subject population.)

The most interesting point to me is that the case is still 'open', as opposed to 'closed', which would mean no further investigation is needed.
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Old 01-19-2008, 01:36 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by max49:
Unlike others who say cracked rotors caused by overheating are operator error or lack of maintenance, my first guess would be defective calipers that are not releasing completely. This problem will compound as the rotors get warped from the heat, as they will scuff more and harder as warped section passes between the pads. They should still push out if the calipers are working right and it can push the fluid back to the master cylinder.
Max, That would be me by the way and unfortunately operator errors have caused a number of these problems but not all. Some people do in fact know how to drive their motorhomes.

I believe your position regarding the calipers is sustainable and the evidence for this should be clear if that's what the engineering study finds. The jury isn't in and "we're all waiting" for that report to be released.
Quote:
It probably doesn't help much but I am still in the habit of reaching down with my foot and pulling up on the brake pedal once in a while just feel if it seems to be releasing completely.
I have seen where owners have had installed a secondary return spring on the relay rod, including me on my 2001 model however the efficacy of the spring in my opinion wasn't proven.

A zerk fitting installed in my later model 2003 chassis meets the current maintenance standard which I believe is a good proactive measure which rules out binding in the relay rod.
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Old 01-19-2008, 01:51 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard 34A:
The most interesting point to me is that the case is still 'open', as opposed to 'closed', which would mean no further investigation is needed.
What we see here is the following;

They have closed the original investigation (PE07032)and opened a new engineering evaluation.
NHTSA Action Number : EA07016 NHTSA Recall Campaign Number : N/A

The original investigation is closed and a new engineering evaluation is open. We are all waiting the outcome of the engineering evaluation. There has not been a recall campaign enacted.

If there is a campaign developed, all the WCC forum members will be the first people to know about it because it'll be posted at the top of the forum in bold print.
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Old 01-19-2008, 02:13 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by jdsr:
DRIVER , lets see how concerned you are for our safety. on the opening page of this site there are 5 or 6 topics that are always there, you know in big bold letters.
I am trying to see so very hard to see any benefit in your statement however what I do see is taunting.

The engineering evaluation notice that has been repeatedly posted in these forums is clear and present in its current context.

If there is a campaign developed, all the WCC forum members will be the first people to know about it because it'll be posted at the top of the forum in bold print..
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Old 01-19-2008, 02:26 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by Streamerman:
I met DriVer at the show this week and told him I appreciate the informative information he provides us here on this forum and I also feel if one of us needed an advocate he would go to bat for anyone of us. IMHO!
Steamerman, It was great meeting you as well as the other iRV2 folks that came to the display. It's always nice to put a face on a screen name. This is one of the reasons why the Regional and National Rallies are so popular.

I regret that I missed Speed Racer since I wasn't there at the time. My fellow ambassador Ed Gray also met some iRV2 members while he was there.

The show is almost over and I should be in the display area today and tomorrow.
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Old 01-19-2008, 02:52 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by DriVer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jdsr:
DRIVER , lets see how concerned you are for our safety. on the opening page of this site there are 5 or 6 topics that are always there, you know in big bold letters.
I am trying to see so very hard to see any benefit in your statement however what I do see is taunting.

The engineering evaluation notice that has been repeatedly posted in these forums is clear and present in its current context.

If there is a campaign developed, all the WCC forum members will be the first people to know about it because it'll be posted at the top of the forum in bold print. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

At least you were not asked to do an act of worship or jump off a temple. Maybe through a hoop or two.

I agree wait and see what the results of the engineering evaluation are however regardless of what you drive proper/regular brake inspection and maintenance is still good practice.

We just had a relative visiting from Canada who heard a funny brake noise comming from his car as he drove off. We did an immediate inspection of his SUV and found the lube on his calipers compromised by road salt and sand so the caliper was dragging. We took off the calipers cleaned the guides, replaced the pads using an antisqueal compound on the backings and put high temp silicone brake grease on all the guides and ways. All in all an hours time well spent.

Should all the other SUV's of that make model and year be recalled? No it was obvious that lack of regular maintenance and poor road conditions was the root cause of the problem.
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Old 01-19-2008, 08:16 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by Streamerman:
I met DriVer at the show this week and told him I appreciate the informative information he provides us here on this forum and I also feel if one of us needed an advocate he would go to bat for anyone of us. IMHO!
I whole heartily agree!!

I'm certainly grateful that Driver is here as a liaison between us Workhorse owners and Workhorse. His 1000's of posts on iRV2 are a testament to his customer support.

Mike has help me numerous times and I thank him for that help.

-Tom
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