Gasoline quality?

[lwmuddy]

I think most people take it for granted that the Grade that they buy is of good quality, because I never read anything on forums about it.

Before we left Reno Nevada there was an artical in the paper stating Reno had one of the poorest qualities of gasoline anywhere.I suppose they we watering it down with too much Alcolhol.

The other day I gased up at a odd name station next to a T/A and I ran MUCH better then the previous many months. The only thing different was that I used the Middle Octane grade instead if the Regular.

Has anyone tryed additives? Does it take alot to make a difference?
I know we are being screwed, but not sure exactly how much.

[lwmuddy]

I think most people take it for granted that the Grade that they buy is of good quality, because I never read anything on forums about it.

Before we left Reno Nevada there was an artical in the paper stating Reno had one of the poorest qualities of gasoline anywhere.I suppose they we watering it down with too much Alcolhol.

The other day I gased up at a odd name station next to a T/A and I ran MUCH better then the previous many months. The only thing different was that I used the Middle Octane grade instead if the Regular.

Has anyone tryed additives? Does it take alot to make a difference?
I know we are being screwed, but not sure exactly how much.

[lwmuddy]

I found my answers on this web site and a PDF file 1/2 way down the page.

http://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/23613
Copy and paste the above address.

I has everything you wanted to know about Gasoline and then some.

[DonavonP]

The rednecks say that a 10% mix of ethanol with gasoline will result in a 10% reduction in mileage.
The PCA states that it will result in a 3-4% reduction in mileage. My experience is that it results in about a 5% reduction in mileage BUT that is very unscientific as I have no real basis for testing because my gross vehicle weight has been varying and the winds have been nasty.

I've stated that my engine sounds better without ethanol. I don't like the lobby group that's pushing ethanol down our throats so my prejudice is fogging the results. In fairness, on the last tank of ethanol contaminated gasoline, my engine ran fine.

[lwmuddy]

The next time I fuel I'll try the Premium, just to satisfy myself. I too think that what their doing is suspect, but Big Bro says we must do it. Lobby money talks and BS walks.

Who really knows what is added or not added at the tank farms or the stations.

If it's anything like watering down drinks in a bar, well you know.

[oemtech]

I am currently at a Texas Boomers rally in San Antonio. We have a PHD Petro Chemical Engineer that just retired as the Directory of Research for a major oil company. I have been getting a short course in "Fuel 101". The quality of gas depends on the crude oil source, the refiner and the storage facility according to my source. As many have said before, mostly it the additive package that is added at the time the tanker is loaded.

I asked about adding Acetone, Toluene or other aromatics to the mix. Acetone will raise the OCTANE or volatility, as he says. You will just get a better burn rate of the fuel charge. Will that translate to better mileage. He didn't know as that is not his field of expertise.

We used Acetone and Toluene in a stock car when unleaded gas came out and you could not buy Sunoco 120 anymore.

Also, according to him ethanol produces almost 50% less btu's than gasoline.

[eandy]

Being in Ca.(originator of MTBE)and famous for having the dirtiest gas in the country at the highest prices, I can comment. Prior to moving here we lived in the Bay area and have traveled to Reno by car. Gassed up before going home and don't remember noticing any diff. except cheaper.
Taking new rv on 1st trip last fall to KC,MO, I was recording mpg. Was breaking in period and still is. Started trip with full tank and last tank on return was in Arizona plus at least 1 tank running around gas in Mo. Mpg going was 8. Return leg got 9 for 8.5 avg. Can't say I heard or felt any performance diff with non Ca gas but suspect cleaner gas likely did better.
Am I correct in thinking higher octane results in higher operating temps?

[oemtech]

Higher octane equates to volatility. IE - Burn rate. GO Here to read about octane.

[Freddy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oemtech:
As many have said before, mostly it the additive package that is added at the time the tanker is loaded. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cannot speak for all refiners, but after having worked for one major refiner in several different countries around the world, I know that their gasoline is a finished blend before it reaches the sales station, ship, barge, or pipeline.

That is, all additives are in the receipe, and ammounts controlled by computers with some human intervention. Post blend lab tests might show that the mix is somewhat on the low side of a component, requiring the refiner to "doctor" the blend. Knock engine and vapor pressure tests are also performed before the blend is shipped.

The shipping tank is mixed, allowed to settle and then checked for water. There are facilities for draining water from the tank. However, many tanks have a level (heel) in which the shipping pump cannot go below (e.g., the pump suction ells up a couple of feet inside the tank). Refiners do not like to ship water, so every effort is made to make sure that the gasoline is water free before shipping.

Refiners blend "jobber" gasoline to the receipe of the company ordering the blend. That receipe may or may not contain all additives found in quality gasoline blends. BP refiners, for example, can blend "Shell" gasoline to Shell's specs.

I believe that if I buy "brand name" gasoline, I'll get all the additives needed for an efficient, clean burning fuel.

Keep in mind however, that only about 35% of the energy in a gallon of quality gasoline is used by the internal combustion engine. The rest goes out the tailpipe; some into the crankcase. If you buy the cheapest gas on the block, that's what you'll get (perhaps lighter fluid with some octane, butane and dye). Consumption goes up, efficiency goes down.

I know nearly nothing about Ethanol. I do believe that it has to be blended into gasoline after it has been delivered to the service station. Ethanol and water do not like each other. The higher the mix (&gt;10%) will likely eventually destroy the gas tank, and perhaps the vehicle's engine.

This problem will likely require stations to install new tanks, pumps, etc.

Don't count on ethanol lowering the price of gasoline; it is likely to go up even more irrespective of the cost per bbl of crude from the middle east. Refiners who own their own stations are not likely to install new facilities out of the goodness of their hearts! We're likely going to be paying for those "enhancements" for a very long time!

...and then there are the corn growers, already greatly subsidized by taxpayers! But, that's another story!

[Steady Eddie]

Freddy---
Thank you for your informative post.
Here in the Great Pacific Northwet, we have
but one refinery, refining crude into jet fuel,
diesel, stove oil, gasoline, etc. This refinery
is located north on Puget Sound. There is a single,
large pipeline pumping all these products Southward,
towards Portland, Or. There are branch lines off
the main feeder, to local tank farms. The main line
to the South is huge. When the refinery switches from
jet fuel to gasoline, do you know where the remaining-
in-the-pipeline jet fuel goes??? That is a question
I've always wanted to ask....thanks....

[Freddy]

Eddie,

Sometimes gasoline, kerosene, etc. travel in the same pipeline at the same time, with just "space" between them. Sometimes the pipeline will place what's call a "pig" in the line ahead of the new product to flush out the old into the appropriate tank.

That takes some coordination, as you might imagine. But, in this day and age there are electronic "pigs" that can be tracked by computer. The human operator - or perhaps a computer somewhere - will open and close the appropriate valves to assure segregation. I suspect some older pipelines still rely on sliderule calculations (e.g., time required for product to reach a point using a certain sized pump and pipeline diameter). In this case there is likely to be some cross contamination.

I've been out of the "business" for 10 yrs. now, and I'm certain that technology improvements would today make me a trainee in the industry.

[DonavonP]

Hi Freddy, Thanks for the great post. Ethanol likes water and that's the problem. As soon as it's exposed to the atmosphere (in your gasoline tank) it begins to absorb water where it begins ruining the fuel delivery system. It takes years to occur and the average car owner will trade off the vehicle before it's a problem. Oddly enough, some of these used cars in up in the hands of professional protesters

The agricultural lobby is responsible for this ethanol push. They are also responsible for suppressing information on the rapid rise in obesity, acid reflux and the resulting esophageal cancer and countless other health anomalies.

If you want to see the obnoxious amount of money being urinated away on farm welfare, go to
http://www.ewg.org/farm/index.php?key=nosign (this site is being forced to be closed down so don't wait too long)

[Freddy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DonavonP:
The rednecks say that a 10% mix of ethanol with gasoline will result in a 10% reduction in mileage.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who are "the rednecks?"

I used 10% ethanol while in western Nebraska, and noticed no difference in performance or mileage.

Of course, unless you fill a tank from empty the first time you use ethanol, you will get less than 10% because existing fuel in your tank will further dilute it.

[DonavonP]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Who are "the rednecks?"

I used 10% ethanol while in western Nebraska, and noticed no difference in performance or mileage.

Of course, unless you fill a tank from empty the first time you use ethanol, you will get less than 10% because existing fuel in your tank will further dilute it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll leave the definition of "redneck" to Jeff Foxworthy.

10% ethanol gasoline has about 5000 fewer btu's per gallon so technically you should be getting fewer mpg but it's a moot point because we're gonna have ethanol gas come heck or high water.



_{(edited HTML code for 'quote' and deleted duplicate post.)}