Is Workhorse telling us the truth?

[Photog]

I found this very troubling post on the rvfourm.net website. If it's true it would appear that the Workhorse claim that they are waiting for calipers from Bosch is misleading if not a bold faced lie.

WH ambassadors any comments with respect to this claim:

"I have continued to talk to Workhorse and this last week I talked to / ELIE AZZI DIRECTOR, PRODUCT WARRANTY BOSCH BRAKING SYSTEMS CORPORATION 401 NORTH BENDIX DRIVE SOUTH BEND, INDIANA 46628 PHONE: 574-237-3104. His first reply was that they have not started to retool at this time because of a riff between Workhorse and NHTSA then he stopped talking and told me that I needed to talk to WorkHorse it was their problem not Bosch."

[DriVer]

Well that didn't take long at all!

I was just responding to a PM about that very same quote which was seen today by another person. Personally, I am troubled by that statement. Why? Because I do not have a response for it, I can't verify it and I bet you a ride in Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade that ELIE AZZI has turned into a Cherrystone Clam so getting follow on information from him is going to be Mission Impossible.

I find it totally remarkable that the Bosch Director would come out with that strong of a statement about this issue. I have some thoughts about the matter however those are just thoughts and rather than ratchet up the rhetoric about this statement I'm going to let it stand as it is, sink or swim ... "That Bell Has Been Rung !"

Given the hyphenated option to add to the title I might also want to suggest; "Is Bosch Telling us The Truth?" NHTSA found that the calipers were problematic and as best as I can tell it does not say Workhorse anywhere on the caliper casting.

If this is their cause, and since there has been numerous documents from NHTSA and to some degree documentation from Workhorse to their owners, what is absent in all of this is a single document from Bosch either accepting or denying responsibility or a statement assigning the blame where in their position it belongs..

■

[edgray]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Photog I found this very troubling post on the rvfourm.net website. If it's true it would appear that the Workhorse claim that they are waiting for calipers from Bosch is misleading if not a bold faced lie. WH ambassadors any comments with respect to this claim: ......

First let me say (since you asked) that I don't know how you reach the conclusion that the post you quoted does NOT confirm that workhorse is WAITING ON BOSCH. Isn't that exactly what the Bosch guy is susposed to have said...that THEY have not begun??? Sure seems to me that UNTIL they begin supplying the parts, Workhorse and us owners are waiting for BOSCH. How does that support your claim that workhorse is "misleading" or telling a "bold face lie" . I still don't understand how so many are so quick to blame Workhorse, while giving BOSCH a free pass. Yes, it was a WCC decision to USE these Bosch calipers, and I'm pretty sure they wish they had gone with another brake product considering the problems these calipers have caused.....but I believe NHTSA determined the problem is with the BOSCH designed and built calipers, and I believe that NHTSA has given Bosch time to determine the fix and supply the parts. I am mystified as to why NHTSA and Workhorse seem to be unable to put pressure on Bosch to expedite the parts to implement and conclude this recall.

Regarding the other forum post itself, I see it contains the name, title, address and phone number of the Bosch employee who is allegeded to have said these things. Has anyone verified "who" posted this info or done any other investigative work to determine if the post is factual or just "creative journalism". I agree it reads like genuine info, but bigger hoax have been pulled before. Let's see what develops in the next week before jumping to conclusions. ED

[Jim Stewart]

Out of curiosity has any one discussed or considered the possibility that Workhorse is trying to determine the actual cost of the total recall and that the cost may exceed the value of the company?

Do you think that they would consider Chapter 7 as the best financial alternative. It would be totally acceptable for them to do that as "business is business" and everyone would just have to accept it and go on with life.

[DriVer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Stewart Do you think that they would consider Chapter 7 as the best financial alternative. It would be totally acceptable for them to do that as "business is business" and everyone would just have to accept it and go on with life.

Jim, Would you be suggesting that the cost of 200,000 calipers exceeds the net worth of Navistar? What are we looking at? - - $20M not a lot of money to a multi-billion dollar company. I don't think we're to the point of having to consider that as an option. I'm expecting that there's a lot of life left in Workhorse!

What I would hate to see is that NHTSA has assigned the responsibility to Workhorse however the blame lies in the calipers. This could get legally ugly real quick if the powers that be don't come off center in this matter. We're all waiting for this issue to come to a close. I am not any less anxious than anyone else.

[Steve N Sal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Stewart Out of curiosity has any one discussed or considered the possibility that Workhorse is trying to determine the actual cost of the total recall and that the cost may exceed the value of the company? Do you think that they would consider Chapter 7 as the best financial alternative. It would be totally acceptable for them to do that as "business is business" and everyone would just have to accept it and go on with life.

Now that's an interesting note. Yes "business is business" and the heck with everyone that has supported and purchased their product. I still can't see HOW Bosch is out the limelight. Workhorse in good faith used the product that was supplied to them by Bosch so how can the manufacture of those calipers think that they are not liable? I still think that WH might have made a big mistake by trying to save a few bucks by not just using the same system they put on the W24. How much more could it have cost eveyone? Knowing what we know today wouldn't you have paid the extra for it? I know I would have.

[Jim Stewart]

I believe that the average repairs have (similar), or will, exceed $1,000.00/unit. We are also talking about Workhorse which is an LLC that is owned by Navistar. In a down market that is expected to continue for many years, a Chapter 7 may be significantly cheaper than the recall which could run between $20 million-$40 million.

Navistar would not be financially affected by the Chapter 7 in anyway. They still have Monaco/Roadmaster that could buy what's left of Workhorse out of the Chapter 7 without assuming the liability. Would not be the first time something like that has happened.

[edgray]

Jim Stewart: Your speculation about WCC going bankrupt is not well thought out, IMO. First, NAV did not buy WCC to watch it go into Brankruptcy. If WCC "disappears", NAV will have to write off their investment, which I think was "substantial". Second, you seem to be forgetting that BOSCH is responsible to provide the parts (at least), and we don't know which company is on the hook for the labor costs involved with the recall. I'd bet money I don't have that WCC is not going to absorb the full cost of this recall alone. IMO, fears of Nav allowing WCC to go belly up are unfounded. ED

[BellaBo]

Wish I had bought a Navistar! Bet they don't use Bosch brakes.

[Jim Stewart]

Could be Ed! No company buys a company to watch it go bankrupt, but sometimes things happen that cause them to make business decisions. I am not sure what value Navistar has on their books for WCC, but a large portion will certainly be absorbed by the liability of the recall. In addition, the last several years of most likely losses have reduced the book value.

I do not know what portion of the recall will be attributable to parts and which portion will be attributable to labor, however, both sides of the cost will probably be substantial. Also, a Chapter 7 would relieve them of any cost for current warranties or future recalls, which would be on their books as a reserve.

It seems in todays world, many Corporations own their subsidiaries as LLCs for just such circumstances. Navistar set up an LLC to purchase the assets of Monaco and avoided any existing and future liability for warranty and recall. I assume that they believed former and future customers would not be swayed by past sins. I would also assume that they would probably assume the same would be true for WCC.

You see, my speculations were and are well thought out, IMHO. Maybe their's are as well!

[darbyjudy]

Have you ever noticed after you make a big investment you always wish you had bought something else. At the present time I sure wish I hadn't listened to the people in this Forum and went with my first choice FORD, I wouldn't have had all of my brake problems and maybe it would have been better. But you know that is the way it is with me, I shop & shop & shop and usually buy the most expensive and still end up holding the bag.
But right now I have two choices, 1- wait until something happens or 2- sell at a great loss and give up this way of life because I cannot at my age afford to buy another. This was to have been my last fling, this was supposed to last until the kids made me quit driving. But it is beginning to me more stressful that enjoyable. Come on Workhorse mnake this old man happy and do the right thing. Either **** or get off the pot.

[DriVer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Streamerman Wish I had bought a Navistar! Bet they don't use Bosch brakes.

ITE School Busses ??? I bet they do, but I don't know that for sure.

[edgray]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Stewart It seems in todays world, many Corporations own their subsidiaries as LLCs for just such circumstances. Navistar set up an LLC to purchase the assets of Monaco and avoided any existing and future liability for warranty and recall. ..........

I don't pretend to be a lawyer, or otherwise an expert in bankruptcy issues, but I think your implication about NAV is incorrect.

While it is apparently true that the new Monaco RV, LLC did not acquire any warranty or recall liabilities of the original Monaco Coach Corp, I believe it was the act of filing bankruptcy by the old company that terminated those liabilities. Setting up an LLC does not avoid liability, but it does limit where the "buck" stops.

I'm aware that many Monaco brand owners think the new company "should" be responsible, but as I see it, Nav bought what the bankruptcy judge was selling, namely the assets, real estate, and "intelectual properties", whatever that includes. Maybe the resolution of this needs to be addressed in the bankruptcy laws....

Last I heard, there are many Monaco owners who are happy that "someone" is trying to keep the brands alive and offer at least some level of support for the older coaches-even though they got screwed out of their limited warranty issued by "old Monaco". ED

[Steve N Sal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by darbyjudy Have you ever noticed after you make a big investment you always wish you had bought something else. At the present time I sure wish I hadn't listened to the people in this Forum and went with my first choice FORD, I wouldn't have had all of my brake problems and maybe it would have been better. But you know that is the way it is with me, I shop & shop & shop and usually buy the most expensive and still end up holding the bag. But right now I have two choices, 1- wait until something happens or 2- sell at a great loss and give up this way of life because I cannot at my age afford to buy another. This was to have been my last fling, this was supposed to last until the kids made me quit driving. But it is beginning to me more stressful that enjoyable. Come on Workhorse mnake this old man happy and do the right thing. Either **** or get off the pot.

Just hang in there with the rest of us. Don't put your rig aside. I've decided to use it that's why we bought it. Keep an eye on the condition of your brake fluid, keep a safe distance when driving and enjoy. By the way, the FORD decision wouldn't have been any better as they use BOSCH brakes as well.