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02-12-2008, 04:42 AM
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#1
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Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 17
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This is long - so please bear with me.
I have a WH W22 on a 2003 Holiday Rambler with about 24K on it. At about 16K miles, I went to start it - that was in the summer of 06 - and it would not crank. A mechanic where I park it did a check and concluded that it was the fuel pump based on it not getting gas to the engine. It was three months out of warranty, but WH agreed to partially re-imburse. My mechanic got a fuel pump through a local Chevy dealer based on the part number provided by WH. He dropped the tank and repaired it and the coach ran fine -- well for about six months. In March 2007, I drove from Atlanta to Savanaah and on the way back, while towing a Jeep Liberty, noticed a major loss of power and the engine struggling to climb a hill. The transmission was shifting erractically.
I thought it might be the transmission, so I had my mechanic service it - he dropped the pan, changed the internal filter, external filter, and re-filled with transynd - which is about $150 for five gallons. He noticed no burning or discoloration inside the transmission and said it looked fine. He showed me the old parts to confirm the service was done.
While driving to the lake on several occasions after the trans service, which is about 60 miles away, I'd notice the coach struggling some, especially while climbing a big hill near the lake toward the end of the trip. I got to reading up on WH's problems, and thought I had signs of bad plugs and burnt wires.
Last July, I had my mechanic change the wires and plugs and they were in pretty bad shape. I left Atlanta late last August and drove to north Mississippi (350 miles) and didn't notice any problems. I kept my coach there through the fall and headed back to Georgia in late November. Just outside Birmingham on a hilly stretch of the newly opened Hwy 78 (soon to be I-22) - I began to notice a loss of power and it got to the point I was slowly creeping up a large hill. I stopped, unhooked the toad, and tried to go on farther, but it was just as bad without the toad as it was with it. I found a church parking lot and pulled over and called roadside assistance and was towed to a authorized WH dealer.
The WH mechanic kept the coach for a week. There were no codes in the computer indicating any engine problems (some old codes from brake problems that hadn't been cleared when they were fixed is all). He checked the fuel filter - it was okay. Checked air filter - okay. Checked the fuel pump and it was okay - BUT, barely within the low end of the specs. He test drove it for 60 miles - no problems. He pulled some plugs to make sure my mechanic had changed and replaced the wires from last summer and found the mechanic had done the work - but oddly - that the plugs had moisture on them, indicating not enough heat to burn off the moisture. He couldn't explain this. After going over all the options, I agreed to have the after market kit put on that consists of two air scopes behind the grill and vent hoses that deliver air over the manifold. Plugs and wires come with the kit - so he replaced all that, although it wasn't entirely necessary.
$1200 later, I left Birmingham after Thanksgiving and headed out to Atlanta. The coach drove as good as it had since day one and I was thrilled. Then, I got about 130 miles into a 150 mile trip and begin to notice the coach not being as responsive as it had been. I ended up limping home the last 10 or 15 miles. Three miles from home, I was on a flat surface at a 4-way stop and just wanted to see how the coach would respond if I floored it. Well, I can best describe it as if you were driving an old six cylinder Ford that was only hitting on about three of four plugs. It pretty much shuddered and was non-responsive until I backed off the gas, then it was good at low speeds, but not responsive to acceleration.
I intend to take the coach to an authorized WH service center next month - but I don't know what to tell them to look for - there will be no codes - and I'm afraid that the result will be all the checks that I had done last November and test drives with no results.
We've lost confidence in the coach - and it's really frustrating. I have a sneaking suspicion that it's another fuel pump issue. There is a loud shrill noise from the rear of the coach that I occasionally hear, and I crawled under the coach and could hear the fuel pumping bumping and grinding in the tank which I don't think is normal at that noise level. It appears the coach runs well until it gets hot - then the power loss occurs. By the way, the gas level doesn't seem to be an issue - It was running fine with a quarter of a tank from Birmingham, and I filled up between Birmingham and Atlanta, so it had nearly a full tank when I experienced the last power loss.
Any thoughts, suggestions or shared experiences would be greatly appreciated.
Dave
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02-12-2008, 04:42 AM
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#2
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Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 17
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This is long - so please bear with me.
I have a WH W22 on a 2003 Holiday Rambler with about 24K on it. At about 16K miles, I went to start it - that was in the summer of 06 - and it would not crank. A mechanic where I park it did a check and concluded that it was the fuel pump based on it not getting gas to the engine. It was three months out of warranty, but WH agreed to partially re-imburse. My mechanic got a fuel pump through a local Chevy dealer based on the part number provided by WH. He dropped the tank and repaired it and the coach ran fine -- well for about six months. In March 2007, I drove from Atlanta to Savanaah and on the way back, while towing a Jeep Liberty, noticed a major loss of power and the engine struggling to climb a hill. The transmission was shifting erractically.
I thought it might be the transmission, so I had my mechanic service it - he dropped the pan, changed the internal filter, external filter, and re-filled with transynd - which is about $150 for five gallons. He noticed no burning or discoloration inside the transmission and said it looked fine. He showed me the old parts to confirm the service was done.
While driving to the lake on several occasions after the trans service, which is about 60 miles away, I'd notice the coach struggling some, especially while climbing a big hill near the lake toward the end of the trip. I got to reading up on WH's problems, and thought I had signs of bad plugs and burnt wires.
Last July, I had my mechanic change the wires and plugs and they were in pretty bad shape. I left Atlanta late last August and drove to north Mississippi (350 miles) and didn't notice any problems. I kept my coach there through the fall and headed back to Georgia in late November. Just outside Birmingham on a hilly stretch of the newly opened Hwy 78 (soon to be I-22) - I began to notice a loss of power and it got to the point I was slowly creeping up a large hill. I stopped, unhooked the toad, and tried to go on farther, but it was just as bad without the toad as it was with it. I found a church parking lot and pulled over and called roadside assistance and was towed to a authorized WH dealer.
The WH mechanic kept the coach for a week. There were no codes in the computer indicating any engine problems (some old codes from brake problems that hadn't been cleared when they were fixed is all). He checked the fuel filter - it was okay. Checked air filter - okay. Checked the fuel pump and it was okay - BUT, barely within the low end of the specs. He test drove it for 60 miles - no problems. He pulled some plugs to make sure my mechanic had changed and replaced the wires from last summer and found the mechanic had done the work - but oddly - that the plugs had moisture on them, indicating not enough heat to burn off the moisture. He couldn't explain this. After going over all the options, I agreed to have the after market kit put on that consists of two air scopes behind the grill and vent hoses that deliver air over the manifold. Plugs and wires come with the kit - so he replaced all that, although it wasn't entirely necessary.
$1200 later, I left Birmingham after Thanksgiving and headed out to Atlanta. The coach drove as good as it had since day one and I was thrilled. Then, I got about 130 miles into a 150 mile trip and begin to notice the coach not being as responsive as it had been. I ended up limping home the last 10 or 15 miles. Three miles from home, I was on a flat surface at a 4-way stop and just wanted to see how the coach would respond if I floored it. Well, I can best describe it as if you were driving an old six cylinder Ford that was only hitting on about three of four plugs. It pretty much shuddered and was non-responsive until I backed off the gas, then it was good at low speeds, but not responsive to acceleration.
I intend to take the coach to an authorized WH service center next month - but I don't know what to tell them to look for - there will be no codes - and I'm afraid that the result will be all the checks that I had done last November and test drives with no results.
We've lost confidence in the coach - and it's really frustrating. I have a sneaking suspicion that it's another fuel pump issue. There is a loud shrill noise from the rear of the coach that I occasionally hear, and I crawled under the coach and could hear the fuel pumping bumping and grinding in the tank which I don't think is normal at that noise level. It appears the coach runs well until it gets hot - then the power loss occurs. By the way, the gas level doesn't seem to be an issue - It was running fine with a quarter of a tank from Birmingham, and I filled up between Birmingham and Atlanta, so it had nearly a full tank when I experienced the last power loss.
Any thoughts, suggestions or shared experiences would be greatly appreciated.
Dave
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02-12-2008, 05:19 AM
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#3
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Moderator Emeritus
Winnebago Owners Club Workhorse Chassis Owner Coastal Campers Carolina Campers
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Conway, SC
Posts: 23,641
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lynxgolfer:
Any thoughts, suggestions or shared experiences would be greatly appreciated. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Dave, Thank you for joining us here in the Workhorse Motorhome Forum.
My experience regarding overheated fuel pumps is quite thorough. We suffered a loss of power due to an overheated fuel pump in the south toll station on New Jersey Parkway. Talk about the wrong place at the wrong time. We could barely crawl away and what you are relating is an event similar to that. Once the pump cooled we were able to proceed but only up until the pump again overheated. By the end of our ownership, we went through 3 fuel pumps I believe. This experience was earlier in my towable years.
Loss of power on Workhorse chassis can be manifest from the throttle activation module or a number of other electrical devices which are located on the engine or under the dash. My failure presented a loss of power, backfiring and we were barely able to move off the highway. This event occurred in 2 lane construction while crossing the Appalachian mountains. After we had pulled off the road, I allowed the vehicle to sit for a few minutes and after re-start we able to proceed normally.
The loss of power I experienced presented an error message in the IP stating "Reduced Engine Power" however you do not have this message being presented. There's a throttle activation control on the gas pedal that connects to the module. A Tech-II was able to scan those codes. Once the module was replaced about 2 years ago we have not had any other power loss failures. I hope that your service center can rule out that possibility while he is investigating the fuel pump.
Quite a few techs have shared with me that a fuel pump either works or it doesn't. One error message regarding fuel starvation (plugged filter) is in regard to an O2 sensor EC as it becomes starved for fuel. Fly by wire is great when it works as advertised. I hope that your issue is resolved quickly, camping season is just around the corner.
__________________
03 Adventurer 38G, Workhorse W22
F&R Track Bars, Safety+ , Ultrapower, Taylor Extremes, SGII
TST 507, Blue Ox, SMI, Koni FSD, CrossFire
RV/MH Hall of Fame - Lifetime Member
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02-12-2008, 07:58 AM
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#4
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Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 17
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Thanks for your response. Strangely, at one time - in the middle of November, after the coach had sit for about three weeks, the cranking battery was dead and I had to use the power boost to crank it. I did get the "loss of engine power" message on the info center - but when the WH dealer worked on it- he said there were no codes in the computer. The owner's manual says if you get the loss of engine power message, to shut down the engine, and let it sit and try later. I actually let it run for about two minutes and smoke was billowing out of it - then shut it down. Tried it later, the error message was gone, but it was still smoking. I drove it about a block and it started running fine.
I do appreciate the info you shared. Dave
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02-12-2008, 12:56 PM
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#5
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Moderator Emeritus
Winnebago Owners Club Workhorse Chassis Owner Coastal Campers Carolina Campers
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Conway, SC
Posts: 23,641
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lynxgolfer:
I do appreciate the info you shared. Dave </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You're welcome and I'll be right here if you have any further questions.
__________________
03 Adventurer 38G, Workhorse W22
F&R Track Bars, Safety+ , Ultrapower, Taylor Extremes, SGII
TST 507, Blue Ox, SMI, Koni FSD, CrossFire
RV/MH Hall of Fame - Lifetime Member
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02-12-2008, 01:28 PM
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#6
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Senior Member
Jayco Owners Club
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,198
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Welcome Lynxgolfer!!!
Moisture on the spark plugs and smoke on start up sounds like coolant leaking into one or more of the combustion chambers.
Was it white smoke?
__________________
DonavonP
2016 Jayco White Hawk 27dsrl
US Army 1968-70 SETAF 559th Vicenza Italy
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02-12-2008, 01:34 PM
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#7
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Moderator Emeritus
Winnebago Owners Club Workhorse Chassis Owner Coastal Campers Carolina Campers
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Conway, SC
Posts: 23,641
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DonavonP:
Was it white smoke? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Good question!
__________________
03 Adventurer 38G, Workhorse W22
F&R Track Bars, Safety+ , Ultrapower, Taylor Extremes, SGII
TST 507, Blue Ox, SMI, Koni FSD, CrossFire
RV/MH Hall of Fame - Lifetime Member
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02-12-2008, 05:04 PM
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#8
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Senior Member
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 354
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Can one put a second fuel pump on that would be between the tank (external) and the fuel filter? We have done that on some of the older vintage cars where their mechanical fuel pump diaphrams are breaking down.
Frank O.
__________________
2006 Itasca Sunrise 35A
Niwot, Colorado
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02-13-2008, 05:54 AM
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#9
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Moderator Emeritus
Winnebago Owners Club Workhorse Chassis Owner Coastal Campers Carolina Campers
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Conway, SC
Posts: 23,641
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FrankO:
Can one put a second fuel pump on that would be between the tank (external) and the fuel filter? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Frank O., It not that simple to over come the control circuitry. We've written about this on the board in the past. The ECM needs to receive correct data from the fuel pump in order to get everything spinning up under the hood.
__________________
03 Adventurer 38G, Workhorse W22
F&R Track Bars, Safety+ , Ultrapower, Taylor Extremes, SGII
TST 507, Blue Ox, SMI, Koni FSD, CrossFire
RV/MH Hall of Fame - Lifetime Member
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02-13-2008, 05:25 PM
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#10
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Senior Member
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 354
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Thanks Driver, just thought I would ask in case the fuel pump goes out for a temp fix.
Frank O.
__________________
2006 Itasca Sunrise 35A
Niwot, Colorado
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02-13-2008, 10:38 PM
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#11
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Senior Member
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: On The Road
Posts: 101
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Re: installing an external fuel pump. I disassembled the pump removed from my 02 W-22 at 35k miles. The internal filter was 95% solid plugged. It quit at a border patrol check station in california up hill naturally. I doubt that an external pump would have been able to overcome the restriction. I had previously changed 5 filters. When I drained them on white paper all had some what appeared to be rust or dirt.
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02-14-2008, 01:23 AM
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#12
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Senior Member
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Albuquerque NM
Posts: 172
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Good morning Guys,
Does anyone have a current / valid part number for the Workhorse fuel pump ??
Might be good info to have on the road.
Carvin Marvin,
Is the fuel pump internal filter "inside" the pump ?
Or is it inside the tank at the pickup ??
__________________
Gregg C.
2003 Pace Arrow 36R
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02-14-2008, 01:44 AM
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#13
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Senior Member
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Albuquerque NM
Posts: 172
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DriVer,
I wonder if it would be prudent to purchase a TPS and a Throttle Activation Module...
Maybe even a O2 Sensor, can't hurt to have some key spare parts while on the road.
I would prefer a 1 or 2 hour repair on the road rather than a tow and a all day inconvenience.
Something to think about.
__________________
Gregg C.
2003 Pace Arrow 36R
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02-14-2008, 04:10 AM
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#14
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Senior Member
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Pikeville, NC
Posts: 1,775
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Dave--
I noticed your mechanic only "checked" your in line fuel, and said it was okay. Have it changed immediately and run the rig. The "clicking and banging" is not normal either. A clogged filter could account for both conditions.
__________________
Max H,
2002 Newmar Mountain Aire, 37', 3778, W-22, 8.1 Vortac, Ultra Power upgrade, CAI (cold air intake), Taylor wires, colder plugs, Koni shocks.
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