Community Forums

eandy · 07-31-2007, 09:56 AM

Saw a new washable lifetime air filter from Fram on tv. What do you think DriVer? Course it's not for those of us who have an air mod but for those who are stock.

eandy · 07-31-2007, 09:56 AM

Saw a new washable lifetime air filter from Fram on tv. What do you think DriVer? Course it's not for those of us who have an air mod but for those who are stock.

DriVer · 07-31-2007, 01:08 PM

Washable filters have been around for a long time K&N being the most widely used. S&B filters are also washable and are being used in a number of CAI setups.

I have only seen limited publicity about it but I would not be overly impressed if at all with the filter. A good ol' AC/Delco or WIX filter works very well and unless you go for a Banks kit or a CAI I would say stay with the paper filter and change it regularly.

I have not seen any data that I would feel comfortable with regarding the washable FRAM filter.

John-D · 08-01-2007, 08:33 AM

I have been using a K&N on my towed for some time and there is no evidence of filter not doing it's job well. I'm not sure the filter delivered it's promise of better milllage/performance however I've had it long enough to have more than broke even on it's cost so I have no complaint.

My brother ran dirt bikes, perhaps the hardest test of an air filter you can imagine, and he tells me that they "all ran K&N" and that he's never seen any evidence the filter did not do it's job well.

The one possible downside I've heard explained is that if you accidently over oil the filter, excess oil might interfer with sensors farther down the intake and mess up your engine.

That one, I believe

DriVer · 08-01-2007, 09:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by John-D:
The one possible downside I've heard explained is that if you accidentally over oil the filter, excess oil might interfere with sensors farther down the intake and mess up your engine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>John-D, That would be the Mass Airflow Sensor (MAF) and "Yes" if you mess it up with charge oil Workhorse will not warranty the item. You'll have to go out of pocket for both the cost of the part and labor.

If you re-charge your air filter properly it should work as advertised. People do have a tendency to over oil the filter and it's not really their fault because you really do not have an effective means of gaging how much oil was used. Tacking up a clean filter isn't as easy as it sounds.

Joe Gilbert · 08-02-2007, 06:35 AM

I've mentioned this before but after I added my C.A.I., S&B filter, and E.C.M. reprogramming my oil analysis report showed the least silicon (as in dirt) since I've owened my rig (and most miles between oil changes) I can only assume the S&B filter does a better job than the stock one.

Also, should one contaminate the MAF be using too much filter oil I see no reason why you could not gently clean the wires exposed to air flow in the MAF. Seems like a much better fix than replacing the MAF. I expect Mike might have an opinion on this.

Tom-NC · 08-02-2007, 08:32 AM

Eandy,
I have used Fram filters since I have been changing oil in all my vehicles including my boat and have never had any problems.
I was going to go to K&N but Workhorse don't recommend it.
With my last oil change (use Fram oil filter too) I changed air filter and new Fram filter comes with foam cover for it. My suggestion would be to get the standard Fram Filter for your Workhorse engine.
I have found Fram filters for all my filter applications except the Generartor and Alison transmission.
Good Luck and enjoy.
Tom

DriVer · 08-02-2007, 09:07 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom-NC:
I have used Fram filters since I have been changing oil in all my vehicles including my boat and have never had any problems.
I was going to go to K&N but Workhorse don't recommend it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Tom, Workhorse does not recommend the use of a FRAM oil filter on the 8.1L engine.

Tom-NC · 08-11-2007, 12:35 PM

Mike,
I really don't want to argue with you or Workhorse, however I am 68 years old and have been changing oil in all my vehicles since I was 18 and have used nothing but Fram Filters.
I have used them on GM, Ford, Inported cars and all and will contiunue to use them.
WCC doesn't approve of CAI either or K&N Filters.
WCC also charges a lot of money for their filters as does Alison.
You know I think everyone thinks that if you own a Motorhome you are very wealthy, well that is not so for a lot of us.
I have 24,357 miles on my WCC and have used nothing but Fram and will continue to do so.I change the oil every 3K or 4K depending if I am on road or not. I use a good grade of oil and do not add any oil between changes.
Again Mike I will not argue with you or WCC as I am set in my ways, period.
Have a great weekend and by all means try to stay cool.

Tom

FrontRangeRVer · 08-12-2007, 01:50 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DriVer:
Tom, Workhorse does not recommend the use of a FRAM oil filter on the 8.1L engine.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even though this engine is a GM engine, do you have anything in writing about Fram oil filters from Workhorse?

How 'bout Mobil 1 oil filters or NAPA gold oil filters...Does Workhorse approve of them?

Paul and Sue · 08-12-2007, 05:02 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom-NC:
Mike,
I really don't want to argue with you or Workhorse, however I am 68 years old and have been changing oil in all my vehicles since I was 18 and have used nothing but Fram Filters.
I have used them on GM, Ford, Inported cars and all and will contiunue to use them.
WCC doesn't approve of CAI either or K&N Filters.
WCC also charges a lot of money for their filters as does Alison.
You know I think everyone thinks that if you own a Motorhome you are very wealthy, well that is not so for a lot of us.
I have 24,357 miles on my WCC and have used nothing but Fram and will continue to do so.I change the oil every 3K or 4K depending if I am on road or not. I use a good grade of oil and do not add any oil between changes.
Again Mike I will not argue with you or WCC as I am set in my ways, period.
Have a great weekend and by all means try to stay cool.

Tom

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom, with all respect, I belive that with all of your oil changes in your life, I belive Workhorse information on this subject carries more weight on how to care for my big investment in the Workhorse. I just got my Delco air filter that Workhorse uses for $ 10 more that a Fram. I belive that an extra $10 one or two times a year when changing a air or oil filter is a good investment. As you say I am also set in my way to protect my stuff and not worry about something might go wrong trying to save $10.

DriVer · 08-12-2007, 06:36 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FrontRangeRVer:
Even though this engine is a GM engine, do you have anything in writing about Fram oil filters from Workhorse? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I am only telling you what I as well as 70 or more people heard while in the WCC maintenance seminars at the FMCA Convention which occurred in 2006 in Charlotte, NC.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">How 'bout Mobil 1 oil filters or NAPA gold oil filters...Does Workhorse approve of them? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You are killin' me, WCC did not exclude any of these filters as being unsuitable. BUT we owners have been saying that all along. The filters you quote are all top shelf filters.

DriVer · 08-12-2007, 09:37 AM

<span class="ev_code_RED">Because you asked for it!</span>

Russell,
I obtained great satisfaction from reading your oil filter survey.

I worked for two years as the oil-filter production line engineer in an Allied-Signal FRAM facility and I can confirm every bad thing you have said about FRAM automotive filters. That's from the horse's mouth, as it were.

I'm also a quality engineer and can confirm that FRAM applies no quality control whatsoever to any of the characteristics for which we buy oil filters. I frequently saw filter designs which were barely capable of meeting J806. Many of FRAM's designs will block and go to bypass after trying to filter very little contamination. There were often leakage paths at the paper end discs when these were not properly centered on the elements. Some designs had the pleats so tightly packed against the center tube that they would block off in no time. I had discovered that the FRAM HP1 that I had been buying for about $20 Cdn was EXACTLY the same as a PH8 inside - the only difference being a heavier can - no advantages in flow apacity. The paper filtration media was of apparently poor quality and the process of curing the paper resin was very inconsistent - elements would range from visibly burnt to white. FRAM's marketers admitted that there was just about no way the public could ever prove that an oil filter contributed, or did not prevent, engine damage. The only thing FRAM tested for was can burst strength. Another problem that they have from time to time is in threading the filter base - often there are strands of metal left behind on a poorly formed thread.

I have not used a FRAM filter since I started working there. Their claims are entirely and completely marketing bullshit.

If people really want to protect their engines, a good air filter is vital (which excludes FRAM from that list as well) and a combination of one depth and one full-flow hydraulic filter, together in parallel, will do the job of filtration to perfection.

Thanks for doing a great job in trying to get the truth out! You can quote me anytime.

[name omitted to protect submitter]

Fram Extra Guard PH8A
This filter cartridge has a small outside diameter with a rather low filter element surface area (193 sqin), and features cardboard end caps that are glued in place. The rubber anti-drainback valve seals the rough metal backplate to the cardboard end cap and easily leaks, causing dirty oil to drain back into the pan. If you have a noisy valve train at startup, this filter is likely the cause. The bypass valves are plastic and are sometimes not molded correctly, which allows them to leak. The backplate has smaller and fewer oil inlet holes, which may restrict flow.

The telltale signs for a Fram Extra Guard are: It has 8 small holes for the oil inlet and a thin, cheap looking backplate, and is currently stamped with a "2Y". There are 5 very small crimps holding the gasket in place. If you look into the center hole all the way to the top of the filter, you will see a kind of "button" in the end cap of the cartridge (which looks like it's made of metal from there). This is the plastic bypass valve.

Fram Tough Guard TG8A
This filter has an improved filter element with more surface area (248 sqin), a heavy silicone anti-drainback valve with a good sealing surface, the same plastic pressure relief valve but with an integral screen to keep out large particles, and enough inlet holes for good flow. In my opinion, the only real drawback to this filter is that it is capped on each end with cardboard instead of metal.

The telltale signs for a Fram Tough Guard filter are: It has a better backplate that is usually shiny, with six larger holes for the inlet and 6 spot welds around the them. There are 6 large crimps holding the gasket in place. When you look through the inlet holes, you can see the orange anti-drainback valve. If you look into the center hole all the way to the top of the filter, you will see a kind of "button" in the end cap of the cartridge (which looks like it's made of metal from there). This is the plastic bypass valve.

Fram Double Guard DG8A
This is one of the most expensive filters you can buy. Inside is a basic Fram Extra Guard (PH8A) filter element that has larger diameter holes at the end and has been pre-oiled. You can see this in the picture above (far left). I assume this is to hold the Teflon particles in the filter element before the unit is installed. Don't put Teflon in your engine. It does not belong there! DuPont does not recommend using their Teflon product in internal combustion engines.

Although it has the lowest filter element surface area (193 sqin), it does have a clever spring-loaded nitrile rubber anti-drainback valve and bypass valve combination.

The telltale signs for a Fram Tough Guard filter are: It has a better backplate that is usually shiny, with six larger holes for the inlet and 6 spot welds around the them. The backplate may be stamped with a "1K". There are 6 large crimps holding the gasket in place. The anti-drainback valve diaphragm behind the inlet holes is black. If you look into the center hole all the way to the top of the filter, you will not see the "button" in the end cap of the cartridge like the other Frams.

For more information, specifications and photographs ..... HERE
.....

max49 · 08-12-2007, 01:56 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DriVer:
<span class="ev_code_RED">Because you asked for it!</span>

Russell,
I obtained great satisfaction from reading your oil filter survey.

I worked for two years as the oil-filter production line engineer in an Allied-Signal FRAM facility and I can confirm every bad thing you have said about FRAM automotive filters. That's from the horse's mouth, as it were.

I'm also a quality engineer and can confirm that FRAM applies no quality control whatsoever to any of the characteristics for which we buy oil filters. I frequently saw filter designs which were barely capable of meeting J806. Many of FRAM's designs will block and go to bypass after trying to filter very little contamination. There were often leakage paths at the paper end discs when these were not properly centered on the elements. Some designs had the pleats so tightly packed against the center tube that they would block off in no time. I had discovered that the FRAM HP1 that I had been buying for about $20 Cdn was EXACTLY the same as a PH8 inside - the only difference being a heavier can - no advantages in flow apacity. The paper filtration media was of apparently poor quality and the process of curing the paper resin was very inconsistent - elements would range from visibly burnt to white. FRAM's marketers admitted that there was just about no way the public could ever prove that an oil filter contributed, or did not prevent, engine damage. The only thing FRAM tested for was can burst strength. Another problem that they have from time to time is in threading the filter base - often there are strands of metal left behind on a poorly formed thread.

I have not used a FRAM filter since I started working there. Their claims are entirely and completely marketing bullshit.

If people really want to protect their engines, a good air filter is vital (which excludes FRAM from that list as well) and a combination of one depth and one full-flow hydraulic filter, together in parallel, will do the job of filtration to perfection.

Thanks for doing a great job in trying to get the truth out! You can quote me anytime.

[name omitted to protect submitter]

WOWie!!!!! A very disgruntled X employee, but at least his name is protected, so maybe he can find another job some where.
I've also been using Fram filters since 1970 without a single problem. Driver, I asked before but you did'nt answer, do you also hate Prestone, Autolite, and Bendix brakes?