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Old 09-10-2013, 02:28 PM   #1
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Nothing but bad luck!!

Good grief if u didn't have bad luck I wouldn't have any at all!!
Just heard back from my mechanic and every bolt on the exhaust manifolds broke and they are going to have to remove both flippen heads!! So time to add another X amount of dollars for labour and plus a head gasket kit who knows if they are going to find cracked heads? Not what I wanted to do with only 2 trips left for us in the camping season. Here's my question should have I left well enough alone and dealt with the loud exhaust? Does anyone else think 12 hours is a fair amount of time to do the job?
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Old 09-10-2013, 02:41 PM   #2
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We don't know what coach you have but I've worked on a lot of engines. That said, today's aluminum engines are a different breed. Again I don't know what you have but I do know this. If I break a bolt taking something apart I don't continue breaking bolts I try something different to avoid that problem. I have worked on cars for 40 years. If I had something that my mechanic was going to do for me and he called and told me he broke all of the bolts he'd never touch my vehicle again. Also my vehicle would be towed to another shop with technicians not mechanics and not on my dime.

It appears that you may have had an exhaust leak making some noise. That's something that should be fixed. Is 12 hours a correct flat rate time?? Others will have to chime in on that estimate. It's been awhile since I did flat-rate stuff and since the aluminum engines the times may be different. Cast-iron heads did not take that many hours to R&R. I think the 12 is a bit over the top. I'm also basing some of my feelings on the broken bolts to remove things. That's just dumb. Yea!! break 1 maybe 2 but not all of them.

I'm sure others will have their own opinions.

TeJay
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Old 09-10-2013, 02:48 PM   #3
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Simply putting an air wrench on them and spinning them counterclockwise until they break and then moving to the next bolt and breaking that one is not the way to remove them. Penetrating oil should have been applied, the engine should have been at operating temperature and the bolt should have been wiggled loose with a wrench and not an air wrench.

If they broke all of the bolts trying to remove them and did not follow a similar procedure as outlined above, I would call a wrecker and tow your RV to a dealer who knows how to properly warm up a bolt and loosen it properly, and then have this dealer claim some type of responsibility for not following a simple procedures to properly remove the exhause manifolds, in my opinion
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Old 09-10-2013, 02:56 PM   #4
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Tejay

I was hoping you'd chime in as you really helped me with my last Motorhome engine problems, which with help I did solve, we sold the ford and bought a 95 Winnebago with a p30 chassis 454 powered. You hit all the nails on the head as to what I was thinking as how did he manage to break all the bolts?

His labour rate is half because he maintains all of our fleet trucks but I refuse to pay him anything other than the flat time on this because the accessibility is great. I didn't want to tackle another repair job this year I just didn't have it in me!
For the broken bolts he has told me that removing the heads and removing the broken studs on the bench will save me labour time? Do you think this is right? And i think he should be able to re+re both heads in no more than 10 hours. That's alot of time. But who am I to know I haven't turned wrenches for a living in over 10 yrs. I geuss I just want to be able to go back at him with an argument if he tried to bend me over a barrel
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Old 09-10-2013, 02:59 PM   #5
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I had broken bolts on my Ford 460 which also led to replacing the left head because it cracked at the exhaust port. I had the right exhaust fixed at the same time as it to was leaking. The mechanic that worked on mine, did not break any other bolts while dis-assembling. I was billed for 11 hours so I would say the 12hrs is in the ball park
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Old 09-10-2013, 03:27 PM   #6
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I might say that if I am correct, your rig is a Class C. This allows space to actually do the work. If it was a Class A, the bill could be much worse. I have Ford V10 Class A and I have been quoted just under 400.00 to change the plugs?

question: was the quote for 12 hours including the time spent breaking all your bolts, or is that over and above?
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Old 09-10-2013, 03:40 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sswilson View Post
I might say that if I am correct, your rig is a Class C. This allows space to actually do the work. If it was a Class A, the bill could be much worse. I have Ford V10 Class A and I have been quoted just under 400.00 to change the plugs?

question: was the quote for 12 hours including the time spent breaking all your bolts, or is that over and above?
It's a class a but honestly I've worked on both and I would take a class a any day of the week as there is way more room to work but ya no kidding that raises a valid point I shouldn't be paying him for the time he used to break the bolts
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Old 09-10-2013, 03:48 PM   #8
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Your profile says Class C, so that is what assumed. Your profile also says Abbotsford, B.C., and if that is correct, there should be no shortage of technicians between there and Langley that can and will work on this with "maybe" a bit more luck and savvy than the one you are currently using. Let your fingers do the walking to see what the other flat rates are in the area?

Good luck
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Old 09-11-2013, 09:34 PM   #9
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I would not put factory bolts back in the heads. I would use ARP stud fasteners only. http://www.summitracing.com/search/brand/arp

They are much, much stronger than factory bolts and the nuts are much easier to get off than the entire bolt. Might be a great time to think about headers too. They seem to hold up better than the 454 manifolds...and add a little power as well.

Good luck,
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Old 09-12-2013, 04:58 AM   #10
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Mitchyb,
Thanks for the kind words and comments. Very glad to have been able to shed some light on your previous problems.
Seems like you've got yourself into another bind. First off I am not familiar with the Chevy 454. I did some research and it looks like it is all aluminum. If I am correct on the aluminum part here's my HO.
It may work out if the guy does this much repair on large vehicles. He may (???) know what he's doing, and you may have yourself over the repair barrel. The decision to allow him to continue working on it is yours because you are in the best position to make it. I also entirely understand not wanting to get into another repair situation.
He may be correct concerning the amount of time to R&R those studs and to complete the repair. Fatfender38 said he had similar repairs done and the rates were similar. That a bright light.
I'm not sure about Dave's idea on the ARP fasteners. He may be correct and they can be used as a replacement. I don't have all the latest answers for sure. However it is my understanding that all of today's aluminum engines use torque-to-yield bolts in critical areas. Some of those areas are: intake & exhaust manifolds, and head-bolts. Keeping these aluminum engines together requires a method to more accurately torque these critical areas. It has become a standard practice today when taking these engines apart to actually de-torque some of these bolts using set procedures. If you don't you may permanently warp a part. You are probably familiar with these type of bolts but for the sake of those who aren't here's a brief explanation.
Torquing any standard bolt on a cast-iron engine will yield variations in clamping forces up to 20-30% or more. that's OK on the old cast blocks but not good enough for aluminum engines.
A TTY (torque-to-yield) bolt is designed to stretch beyond its elastic limit which yields a more accurate clamping force. Once they are installed they must be replaced. They can not be re-used. That's probably why he did what he did. He figured why waste the time so I'll just break them all.
As far as using penetrating oil and heat. Those methods work on cast iron blocks but with aluminum things have changed. I know spark plugs on the Ford V-10 should be removed with the engine cold. Yes I know that's opposite from what we know and practiced for years but is the recommended way now. Also when re-installing the use of anti-seize compound is recommended as well. Also keep in mind that the TTY bolts are already stretched beyond their elastic limit and therefore they may break a little easier when they are removed.
The aluminum engines really started in about 10 years before I retired and therefore I just didn't get the opportunity to do much work on them. I taught at the high school level and after the SBC (small block chevy) era receded we did few rebuilds.
Best of luck with this repair and please let us know how things turn out.

TeJay
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Old 09-12-2013, 07:38 AM   #11
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Just for information, the GM 454 is a cast iron engine.
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Old 09-12-2013, 08:30 AM   #12
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If you have cast iron heads then a person Really good with a torch can blow the broken bolts out the head without removal. I have had it done on a few trucks with cast iron heads.
The guy that did it owns a muffler shop and i bet he was born with a torch in his hand. Lol
Good luck
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Old 09-12-2013, 09:18 AM   #13
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Well a quick update we are now on day 4 of this job and I am losing my mind on the lack of progress I am hoping he will put the heads back on today "hoping" is the key word here. I know he has the ability to do the job right but have never seen anyone take so long and it's stressfull seeing that we are supposed to be leaving tomorrow for an annual weekend away who woulda thought 10 working hours equates to 5 full days of labour. The stress is not worth the cost savings
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Old 09-12-2013, 09:30 AM   #14
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454 exhaust manifold

If you need exhaust manifolds I have both sides you can have, they are off a 95 454. These are in perfect condition.

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