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Old 03-19-2008, 03:00 PM   #1
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I had taken my MH to the local Workhorse service3 location and they had filled the tranny with Dexron VI. After pointing it out and more, they agreed to drain it and fill with Dexron III. They pulled the bottom off of the Allison and let it drain. I picked it up and as I was driving away, there was a lurch as the tranny paused before engagement. I assumed it was probably air. Several times now, it has done th same thing. Once when I was exiting a parking lot that had a slope, I had stopped and when I stepped on the gas.. nothing. Motor revved and I began to go backwards. Them BAM, it slammed into gear. I had continued to try and give it gas at first so the r's had gotten up a bit over idle.

It has done this a few more times. Any ideas? I have an appointment on the 25th to have the tranny drained again to complete the flush of the Dexron VI.

Joe
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Old 03-19-2008, 03:00 PM   #2
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I had taken my MH to the local Workhorse service3 location and they had filled the tranny with Dexron VI. After pointing it out and more, they agreed to drain it and fill with Dexron III. They pulled the bottom off of the Allison and let it drain. I picked it up and as I was driving away, there was a lurch as the tranny paused before engagement. I assumed it was probably air. Several times now, it has done th same thing. Once when I was exiting a parking lot that had a slope, I had stopped and when I stepped on the gas.. nothing. Motor revved and I began to go backwards. Them BAM, it slammed into gear. I had continued to try and give it gas at first so the r's had gotten up a bit over idle.

It has done this a few more times. Any ideas? I have an appointment on the 25th to have the tranny drained again to complete the flush of the Dexron VI.

Joe
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Old 03-19-2008, 04:09 PM   #3
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JWatkins:
It has done this a few more times. Any ideas? I have an appointment on the 25th to have the tranny drained again to complete the flush of the Dexron VI. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Joe, Curiosity would certainly have gotten me by now as I would have called Allison and asked them about the ramifications if any regarding D VI!
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Old 03-19-2008, 08:21 PM   #4
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I am going to make certain that Workhorse local makes a note about it and I will probably speak to the regional manager for Workhorse if I can find his number. My cruise control went away as well. Hoping that is something they may have knocked loose.
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Old 03-22-2008, 03:36 AM   #5
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Joe, It sounds to me like your trans. is underfilled or if the internal filter was removed while the pan was off the seal was damaged or mispositioned causing the pump to cavitate.

Make sure the fluid level is correct. It's VERY unlikely that the Dexron VI has caused any problems. It is a superior fluid to Dexron III and it will not harm the internal workings of the Allison trans.

While I was at a recent GM training class for the new 6-speed automatic used in the Corvette and full sized pickups and utility vehicles, I asked the instructor (who is a very knowledeable guy regarding Allisons) why Allison did not recommend Dexron VI in the units designed for Dexron III. He said it's due to gasket and seal external leak issues. The newer fluid has a smaller molecular structure and it can seep past external seals and gaskets that aren't designed to contain it. Dexron VI is totally compatible with the clutches and has superior shear and film strength to Dexron III.

At the Chevy dealer I work at we service EVERY Allison trans. equipped truck, old or new with Dexron VI and have not had any problems. It also goes into every HydraMatic trans. we service as well.
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Old 03-22-2008, 03:48 AM   #6
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Regarding your cruise control, my guess would be that if the trans. fluid level is low enough to cause erratic shifting and delayed engagement there could be trouble codes set in the TCM (Trans. Control Module). Often times when codes are set in either the engine or trans. controller, the cruise control will be inhibited until the codes are cleared.
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Old 03-22-2008, 04:39 AM   #7
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It is a superior fluid to Dexron III and it will not harm the internal workings of the Allison trans. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Jim: I don't dispute the quality of Dex VI, but your statement is contrary to the position taken by Allison. Specifically, Allison WATCH #360 bulletin dated November,2006 states, among other things, "DEXRON-VI usage in units manufactured prior to these breakpoints is strickly prohibited by Allison Transmission"

In a separate message I got from Allison which provided the "breakpoints", they stated:

quote: DEXRON-VI use is restricted to transmissions with serial numbers greater than the following:
1000/2000 Product families: 6310670488
3000 Product Family: 6510717281(Indianapolis), 6520083093 (Hungary)
4000 Product Family: 6610220990(Indianapolis), xxxxxxxxxx (Hungary)
DEXRON-VI is prohibited from use in AT/MT/HT Series Transmission. end quote

DEXRON-VI can be used in Allisons built after these serial numbers because they changed the seal and O-ring materials to be compatible with the new fluid.

"At the Chevy dealer I work at we service EVERY Allison trans. equipped truck, old or new with Dexron VI....."

I believe this is exactly what started the problem for JWATKINS (the OP) in the first place. His WCC ASC put in DEXRON-VI and has now been forced by WCC and the customer to remove it with two flushes. Perhaps this is overkill, but at the price of an Allison, I would have done the same. There was a previous thread on his issue. ED
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Old 03-22-2008, 05:25 AM   #8
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A couple of days ago I confirmed with WCC that my 2100, #6310398926, was initially filled with Dexron III. I was told to call Allison to confirm what I could use when the fluid was changed. Allison's answer was either stay with Dexron III or change to TranSynd. My serial # rules out the use of Dexron VI.

Jim do you know if the policy to change everything with Dexron VI is your dealership policy or did Chevy/GM or Allison direct that?
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Old 03-22-2008, 05:36 AM   #9
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Hi Ed,

I was simply trying to reassure Joe and was not suggesting that he run the Dexron VI. I did read the previous thread about this issue and that's what prompted me to ask the instructor at my recent training class why Allison did not recommend D-VI in its earlier units.

When I said there'd be no damage to the internal workings I was thinking of the clutches, gears, valves and other "hard parts". I suppose there could be internal leak issues with the older type clutch piston seals and O-rings. Generally, the GM training instructors have more in-depth information to share with us, but just like anything else, you can't always believe what someone tells you to be factual.

The Chevy dealer I'm at is not a Workhorse Service Center so I'm only operating under the guidelines of GM. I tried and tried to find any GM documentation (bulletins, etc.) regarding the use of Dexron VI in the Allison LCT 1000's used in the Silverados and Sierras as well as the Topkicks and Kodiaks. There's nothing indicating that it shouldn't be used in certain older units prior to certain serial #'s. Quite frankly, this surprises and concerns me. All indications at the GM dealer are that D-VI is OK to use.

I would certainly not dispute what Allison has published and I would adhere to it. I think Joe needs to get his fluid changed back to Dexron III, but I don't think the fact that it has some D-VI in it now is what's causing his problem.

Jim.
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Old 03-22-2008, 06:04 AM   #10
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bob Russo:

Jim do you know if the policy to change everything with Dexron VI is your dealership policy or did Chevy/GM or Allison direct that? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is a GM policy.

Here's an excerpt from GM bulletin #04-07-30-037D dated Nov 21, 2007.

Models: 2008 and Prior GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks
2003-2008 HUMMER H2
2006-2008 HUMMER H3
2005-2007 Saturn Relay
2005 and Prior Saturn L-Series
2005-2007 Saturn ION
2005-2008 Saturn VUE with 4T45-E
2005-2008 Saab 9-7X

Except 2008 and Prior Chevrolet Aveo, Equinox
Except 2006 and Prior Chevrolet Epica
Except 2007 and Prior Chevrolet Optra
Except 2008 and Prior Pontiac Torrent, Vibe, Wave
Except 2003-2005 Saturn ION with CVT or AF23 Only
Except 1991-2002 Saturn S-Series
Except 2008 and Prior Saturn VUE with CVT, AF33 or 5AT (MJ7/MJ8) Transmission Only
Except 2008 Saturn Astra

DEXRONŽ-VI can be used in any proportion in past model vehicles equipped with an automatic transmission/transaxle in place of DEXRONŽ-III (i.e. topping off the fluid in the event of a repair or fluid change). DEXRONŽ-VI is also compatible with any former version of DEXRONŽ for use in automatic transmissions/transaxles.

General Motors Powertrain has upgraded to DEXRONŽ-VI ATF with the start of 2006 vehicle production.

Current and prior automatic transmission models that had used DEXRONŽ-III must now only use DEXRONŽ-VI.

All 2006 and future model transmissions that use DEXRONŽ-VI are to be serviced ONLY with DEXRONŽ-VI fluid.

DEXRONŽ-VI is an improvement over DEXRONŽ-III in the following areas:

DEXRONŽ-VI

Fluid Service Change Interval
160,000 km (100,000 mi) For Cars and Light Duty Trucks*

80,000 km (50,000 mi) (Severe Use) For Cars and Light Duty Trucks*

Clutch Friction Stability
Improved 100%

Clutch Durability Due To Fluid
Improved 120%

Oil Film Thickness
Increased 20%

Fluid Oxidation
Improved 100%

Foam/Aeration
Improved 150%

Shear Stability
Improved 200%

* These ATF change intervals remain the same as DEXRONŽ-III for the time being.

Š 2008 General Motors Corporation. All rights reserved.
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Old 03-22-2008, 07:10 AM   #11
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Thanks Jim. Was hoping it was a local or GM policy versus what would have appeared to have been an Allison contradiction.
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Old 03-22-2008, 12:51 PM   #12
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I have been out in the MH in the desert. I found that the delay occurs most in reverse or when the vehicle is in drive but rolls backward even a little. Horsepowerfan, I wasn't concerned about hard damage, the seals were the issue that worried me. I had discussed the item in detail with Workhorse and Allison. I appreciate you chiming in and offering support. I hope the cruise issue is something simple. The Workhorse facility service manager wasn't very friendly to me when I called in to make the appointment and stated "I see you wrote GM a letter" in a not so pleasant tone. I had actually logged an item with Workhorse online as was suggested in my previous thread. It goes in Tuesday. We will see.

If there are codes set would my ScangaugeII display them?
Thanks, Joe
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Old 03-23-2008, 03:03 AM   #13
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Joe,

I'm glad to help out when I can and I really hope no permanent damage has been done to your transmission.

I'd just suggest that maybe you should check the fluid level following the procedure in the Workhorse Chassis Guide or the Allison Transmission Operator's Manual. There's a "Cold Check" and a "Hot Check" procedure. The Chassis guide actually says that low level can cause pump cavitations and loss of main fluid pressure which can lead to slipping particularly when the trans. is cold or the vehicle is on a hill.

It's disheartening to hear that the manager at your service senter is acting in an unfriendly manner. They did make a mistake and it needs to be corrected.

Is your Workhorse Service Center also a GM dealer? If so, I can understand why they made the mistake of using the Dexron VI. It has been beaten into our skulls (we being the transmission tech's. at GM dealers) that Dexron VI should be the only fluid used to service anything that called for Dexron III, or any previous version of Dexron fluid. (There are exceptions which include some manual transmissions and some transfer cases.) It's getting hard to keep up with all the changes. I think GM's biggest concern is that Dexron III will accidentally be put into a vehicle that requires Dexron VI.

Just as DriVer stated earlier I too wish I knew exactly what the ramifications would be if the wrong fluid was used. Nobody seems to know for sure. Yes, there's a seal incompatibility issue, but what can actually happen due to this? So far, all I've been told is that small external leaks may develop.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> If there are codes set would my ScangaugeII display them? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not familiar with a ScangaugeII so I can't answer that question. Does it have the ability to display TCM codes or just ECM codes? The cruise control is electronically integrated into the ECM/TCM software and the Electronic Throttle Control Module operates the throttle to maintain the set speed. The only external parts to the system are the switch inputs and wiring in the steering column. There's no extra cables or servo like on vehicles that have a traditional cable operated throttle.

I hope both of your issues are simple and your WCC service center gets you all squared away.

Jim.
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Old 03-23-2008, 07:38 AM   #14
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Thanks, Horsepowerfan. Yes, my Workhorse service center is a GM facility. I spoke with the Workhorse regional manager and he tells me that he has notified the centers and has kept the faxes updated for the Allison transmissions. I am sure the service center has a hard time keeping up with it all. I did suggest to them at the time that I wasn't sure but didn't think Dex Vi was compatible and suggested that they check it out. They assured me it was OK. The rest is history.

FYI, according to the Allison techs I spoke with , the seals will harden if Dex VI is used.

The ScangaugeII plugs into the OBDII port and can read codes from there, but I just got it and haven't read all about it yet. I am going to check the codes area to see if anything has been set. I will have to remember to no re-set them!

Thanks again for your insight.
Joe
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