Turbo Chargers

[idenphones]

Being new to RVing but not new to engines and hot rodding, I am surprised that very few, if any, gas engine motor homes are turbo charged.

To me, it seems a natural way to increase the horsepower and torque almost for free.

Comments? Suggestions?

[dieselclacker]

Three negatives that come to mind against turbocharging my motorhome would be--

1. Not free at all, several thousands of dollars required for a decent system, properly designed.

2.Reduced engine reliability from present state, long term

3.Excessive engine heat production to a cooling system that is already over worked.

Your reasons may vary from mine.

Dieselclacker

[WeatherTodd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by idenphones Being new to RVing but not new to engines and hot rodding, I am surprised that very few, if any, gas engine motor homes are turbo charged. To me, it seems a natural way to increase the horsepower and torque almost for free. Comments? Suggestions?

you know the #1 rule of hotrodding... shed weight!
You could fab a budget twin or remote single setup for probably under $2k... less fuel/spark management. Ideally you'd want smaller fans since you wont be floating valves and what not at 6k++.

My 454 P30 works pretty good with just the basic intake/exhaust upgrade.

For low speed torque... the diesels dominate.

[WeatherTodd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dieselclacker Three negatives that come to mind against turbocharging my motorhome would be-- 1. Not free at all, several thousands of dollars required for a decent system, properly designed. 2.Reduced engine reliability from present state, long term 3.Excessive engine heat production to a cooling system that is already over worked. Your reasons may vary from mine. Dieselclacker

Not sure what qualifies as "properly designed"... but I can tell you that buying a premade header will be at the top of any fabricators request list.

Turbos wouldnt be any less reliable... all things equal.

Radiators and fans are cheap ways to double a cooling systems capacity.

[DriVer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeatherTodd Turbos wouldn't be any less reliable... all things equal.

When we drive RV's we'd just about be sitting on top of the turbo housing. There are other things to consider than just putting on a turbo. We're driving houses.

On the other hand GM is integrating hi technology twin vane rotary superchargers into the next generation gasoline engine. In our experience we expect to realize less heat and good performance returns.

Being a Hot Rodder supercharging is the only way to go. I expect you would agree. AA/FD s use em all the time.
.

[dezertcamper]

Kenne Bell makes a Super Charger kit for the 8.1. Its not the cheepset add on you can buy, but dollar per HP I dont think it can be beat. Depending on boost you can get just over 500 hp and close to 700 lbs of torque. The Kenne Bell system uses a knock sensor, so you cant predetinate the cylinder making the super charger system reliable. I know someone who put one on a Suburban with the 8.1 and it was a farely simple kit. The biggest issue I could see on a MH might be room. The Kenne Bell system mounts to the side of the engine so top clearance is not the issue.

[dieselclacker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeatherTodd Not sure what qualifies as "properly designed"... but I can tell you that buying a premade header will be at the top of any fabricators request list. Turbos wouldnt be any less reliable... all things equal. Radiators and fans are cheap ways to double a cooling systems capacity.

Without getting into an argument, you certainly do have to have a custom "header" for the system, how else would you power a turbocharger than via the exhaust?

Turbos them selves are very reliable, an engine that was not designed for them suffers from a good deal of lifespan and reliability after being equipped with a turbocharger system. Turbos make a lot more heat in the engine than it was designed for, this is where the extra power comes from, the stock normally aspirated engine was not designed for the extra heat and stress that the turbo puts on it.

Big fans and radiators might work to remove some of the heat in a Hot Rod or a pickup truck, quite a lot of difference between the underhood room between these applications and a motorhome. Workhorses already have a BIG fan.

I am not knocking turbochargers,they certainly have thier place,I just wouldn't want one added to my motorhome for the stated reasons.

Dieselclacker

[idenphones]

The wife and I went to a certain Corvette show in Penn. this past fall and there was a company there that had put a twin turbo kit together.

Both turbo's where placed after the cat's and pressurized air was plumbed up to the front.

I don't remember where the air intake for the turbo's was exactly

The engine was 400 or so cubic inch but TOTALLY stock except for larger injectors.

No mufflers where required and it didn't sound any louder than my 2002 bone stock Corvette.

They claim that fuel economy actually improved slightly..........provided the driver kept his foot out of the loud pedal.

I will find the web site for these people and post the link.

Just being able to take the mufflers off of our Workhorse chassis looks like it would save many pounds of ugly steel.

[Davel]

idenphones,

That web site might be Squires Turbo Systems - Turbocharged Innovation! . There have been several articles about this system in car magazines. It sounds interesting for sure.

Dave

[WeatherTodd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DriVer When we drive RV's we'd just about be sitting on top of the turbo housing. There are other things to consider than just putting on a turbo. We're driving houses. On the other hand GM is integrating hi technology twin vane rotary superchargers into the next generation gasoline engine. In our experience we expect to realize less heat and good performance returns. Being a Hot Rodder supercharging is the only way to go. I expect you would agree. AA/FD s use em all the time. .

You wouldnt be any closer to the turbo charger than the radiator.

One suggestion would be to have the turbo mounted behind the engine, next to where both headers "Y" into a single exhaust. Thats if you utilitzed the existing iron manifolds.

If you wanted to use some headers... flip them around and mount the turbo upfront, near the intake grill/radiators.

As for radiant heat... its 2009... there are plenty of R30+ insulation products that work well to segregate unwanted heat/cool.


O

[WeatherTodd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dezertcamper Kenne Bell makes a Super Charger kit for the 8.1. Its not the cheepset add on you can buy, but dollar per HP I dont think it can be beat. Depending on boost you can get just over 500 hp and close to 700 lbs of torque. The Kenne Bell system uses a knock sensor, so you cant predetinate the cylinder making the super charger system reliable. I know someone who put one on a Suburban with the 8.1 and it was a farely simple kit. The biggest issue I could see on a MH might be room. The Kenne Bell system mounts to the side of the engine so top clearance is not the issue.

Yes but all things considered... you'd still need to change the exhaust manifolds.
If this thread were about "cheap"... the KB suggestion would be outta reach.

Also the support KB offers as part of the fueling is a joke. The knock sensor is garbage and an ancient method of safeguarding the engine.
Their system...affectionately known as the "craptimiser" usually gets tossed in the garbage for hi power applications. For pedestrian, sunday driving... they are still marginal piggy back systems.

[WeatherTodd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dieselclacker Without getting into an argument, you certainly do have to have a custom "header" for the system, how else would you power a turbocharger than via the exhaust?

Exhaust gases dont know or care if its a tubular or cast manifold from which they exit. Everyone will agree a tubular design is more efficient.
But this thread is not about "efficient systems" ... its about turbocharging.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dieselclacker Turbos them selves are very reliable, an engine that was not designed for them suffers from a good deal of lifespan and reliability after being equipped with a turbocharger system. Turbos make a lot more heat in the engine than it was designed for, this is where the extra power comes from, the stock normally aspirated engine was not designed for the extra heat and stress that the turbo puts on it. Big fans and radiators might work to remove some of the heat in a Hot Rod or a pickup truck, quite a lot of difference between the underhood room between these applications and a motorhome. Workhorses already have a BIG fan. I am not knocking turbochargers,they certainly have thier place,I just wouldn't want one added to my motorhome for the stated reasons. Dieselclacker

Turbos wont accelerate an engine wear if the proper precautions are taking. I would assume that a 454 has a static compression ratio of 10.0 or less. A quick way to lower the compression would be thicker head gaskets. This would allow close to a full point lower in compression.
Depending on the turbo used...we'll assume a low boost (<8lbs) so the additional charge will not cause any issues. And this is just a straight boost, no intercooling assumption. A simple air/air cooler will drop intake temps at least 60 degrees... allowing more compression to be used.

Remember... all things considered.. a turbo is just using exhaust gases... so in effect the power is nearly free versus a supercharger that relys on the crank. In a low performance app (such as a motorhome) the turbo would offer a pretty good ROI versus a s/c if you wanted to keep the system on a modest budget.

Banks charges over $4k for their bolt on system. I know you could build an basic turbo system for much less than that, even if you bought everything new at retail!

My short list for a 454 engine would look like this:
-Edelbrock/Headman shorties & hardware $350 new
-Some stainless 3" tubing & various U bends $350 (mild steel might be 1/2 that) new
-couplers, clamps, and misc $300 new
-intake plenum $80 new
-headgaskets $40 new
-braided AN plumbing & fittings $280 new
-Piggy back TBI controller (laptop tunable) $400 new
-air/air intercooler $100 new
-aux oil cooler $50 new
-Turbo $600 new
-Fab/welding work $500

My figures show me well below the cost of a Banks intake system...even if you doubled the fab cost.

[WeatherTodd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davel idenphones, That web site might be Squires Turbo Systems - Turbocharged Innovation! . There have been several articles about this system in car magazines. It sounds interesting for sure. Dave

The only thing Squires pioneered is the ability to purchase turbocharging components in the coveted "kit" format.

Its no different from building your own house versus purchasing some "architect/builder/investors" idea of the perfect dream home with the profit margin to match.

Any serious fabricator will laugh at someone that wants turbos for mufflers. (except squires...lol)

[gbs2320]

The UFO gas pusher workhorse chassis has tons of room in the back and thus might be a great candidate for such an upgrade. Greg