w21/w22 brake problems

[DriVer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Whaler:
Was something changed?And what is the difference between the W-21 and the W-22 chassis,besides the 22.5 inch tires? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Whaler, The W20 chassis is rated for 20,700 pounds of GVW. The W21 chassis is rated for 21,200 pounds of GVW. A 22.5 inch tire is an option on a W21 whereas on the W20 it isn't. The W21 also has more optional gross axle weight ratings and capacity than the W20. (GAWR)

[jfb]

Lot of gobbly-gook about weights and wheel bases, etc... What are the problems, symptoms?

[NeilV]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jfb:
Lot of gobbly-gook about weights and wheel bases, etc... What are the problems, symptoms? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brake calipers that stick, a brake pedal that does not return to its uppermost position, overheated brake disks and pads along with the odor of overheated brakes coming from your wheel wells, potential loss of braking and possibility of a wheel well fire.

Good regular inspections and maintenance by a quailified mechanic are you best defense against this.

I personally have seen this many times and only on rare occasons was it truly a defect in the brake system design but rather a defect in inspecting and lubricating of the calipers during routine maintenance or applying the proper grade and amount of lubrication during original assembly.

We will have to wait and see what the results of the NHTSA investigation are on this and where the fault lies. In the meantime keep a watchfull eye for the symptoms and be careful in selecting a qualified mechanic to keep them in good order. Note that just because a facility has somene who is factory certified does not mean that he is the one working on your brakes but unfortunately may just be baby sitting a bunch of people who are not really qualified to do the job.

Brakes are only as good as the last person who touched them and sadly many mechanics are not qualified to practice their profession.

[ichn2go]

I am in the process of having brake work done and my symptoms was a surging when stopping. Sort of grabbing and letting loose and then grabing again very subtle but it was there.

I thought I was have good brake maintainence done as I flushed the fluid , had the caliphers greased(just bought the unit last year) so I guess a super mechanic (where do you find them these days?) is the answer...thanks for being there for us dummies.

[George Z]

I have lurked here for 7 months now. My 2006 Epic on a WH 22 chassis had major brake problems at 3200 miles. Replaced 3 complete caliper and rotor assemblies. A climbing brake petal in stop and go traffic caused brakes to overheat. Zerk fitting on linkage was factory installed and grease was ozing from top and bottom. I don"t understand how my problems could be assoiated with improper maintance as only 3200 mi. Maybe sitting on the dealers lot caused the brakedown as the WH tech could not give me a specific cause. Now I have to watch closely for a reoccurance. Pins are lubed and linkage greased. I don't know what else I should have done or can do to eliminate the problem other then hope if it reoccurs it is still under warrenty. { drove the big truck for many years and don't ride the pedal or use brakes excessivly }. I have reported to NHTSA. I am not a disgruntled owner as I like the handleing and driveability of the chassis, I would just like to know what precautions to take as not to have problems again.

[edgray]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I have lurked here for 7 months now </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
GEORGE Z: Welcome to iRV2.com Glad you have decided to post, after lurking, and sorry to read of your brake problem.

FWIW, I doubt you contributed to the overheating problem you experienced. Your comment about time at the dealer MAY have been a contributing factor, also there is the time your chassis MAY have sat on the coach builder's yard waiting to be used in production. Do you happen to know the chassis build date? Regardless, it is unfortunate that owners are having these issues. The fact that WCC repaired your brakes under warranty is good, and hopefully the current investigation will yield some resolution to these brake issues.

Again, Welcome to the forum. We look forward to your continuing participation. ED

[Oemtech]

I still think this is a brake puck issue and has nothing to do with maintence, grease zerks or riding the brakes.

Early Corvettes (78-82 for sure) had a problem and early Dodge vans had a a problem. How do I know, I owned both. Problem was solved on Corvettes with Stainless Steel bore sleeves,new pucks and seals. On the Dodge the replace the "plastic" puck with a steel version, no more problems.

[George Z]

I only posted after following WH brake topics for several months. I can see how those who have not had brake problems and have done caliper pin lube. zerk installation, and drive normally can envision others problems coming from lack of maintince,abusive driving, or other owner/driver faults. I have looked at where I may have faults that could have affected the brakes. I,m drawing a blank and yet I have had brake problems. I don't think the cause of the brake problems is something that can't be discovered. Someone must step foward and admit there is a problem then tackle the cure.I believe that lubing the pins more than once every 20000 miles {18 months}, greasing the zerk more than occasionally, or adding a spring to the return are not normal maintance. I haven't found any of these items in the manual yet. I want to keep my chassis and I want to keep it safe. I just need some direction.

[NeilV]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oemtech:
I still think this is a brake puck issue and has nothing to do with maintence, grease zerks or riding the brakes.

Early Corvettes (78-82 for sure) had a problem and early Dodge vans had a a problem. How do I know, I owned both. Problem was solved on Corvettes with Stainless Steel bore sleeves,new pucks and seals. On the Dodge the replace the "plastic" puck with a steel version, no more problems. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Dodge D100 pickups were also affected by that one in the mid to late 70's. They were the Kelsey Hays units if memory serves me correctly. However that should be supremely obvious when they pulled the calipers and not open to debate as to what is sticking.

[Oemtech]

I call the caliper pistons "pucks" because when you pop them out of the caliper they look like a hockey puck.

You would think that history SHOULDN'T repeat itself. But, when the "bean counters" and the "bottom line" management get in the way "compost happens".

It could be bad seals allows a bit of dirt in the piston bore, add a little extra heat and you get a caliper hang. It could be a poor fit to start with, add some extra heat, the piston expands pass specs and you have a caliper hang.

[Steady Eddie]

"..But, when the "bean counters" and the "bottom line" management get in the way "compost happens".."

Dale--

EXACTLY..I had a 1965 Corvette Roadster, first year with 4 wheel disc brakes, and had to have the Stainless Steel bore sleeves done to it. So we both know it works. A little rust in the bore and the caliper puck hangs up.
I wonder if there is a "way" to spring load the pads to always force them away from the rotor?? A coil spring over the pin, between the brake pads??

[NeilV]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Steady Eddie:
"..But, when the "bean counters" and the "bottom line" management get in the way "compost happens".."

Dale--

EXACTLY..I had a 1965 Corvette Roadster, first year with 4 wheel disc brakes, and had to have the Stainless Steel bore sleeves done to it. So we both know it works. A little rust in the bore and the caliper puck hangs up.
I wonder if there is a "way" to spring load the pads to always force them away from the rotor?? A coil spring over the pin, between the brake pads?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would be nice if it worked that way but that would pull the inside pad into constant drag on the rotor and only free up the outside as the caliper would no longer be free floating. One of the nice features of disk brakes is that they do not require adjustment since they do not have a return spring like drum brakes. You would also have too much brake pedal travel without some system to keep this in check. Disk brakes do not have a pronounced gap between the pads and rotor when the pedal is released and could be considered as basically in constant contact with the rotor even when at rest.

Anyhow if this is what is happening, it is a well know problem that was recognized long ago and should be apparent to any good mechanic that the pistons are frozen or sticking in the bores. If that is the case then Bosch messed up with the design or some defective/substandard castings, pistons or seals made it into their stock. It could also be something as simple as the wrong assembly lubricant was used when they put them together causing too much swelling or a breakdown of the o-rings/seals. They should already know if that is the case from the dissasembly and examination of the calipers that have already failed.

[Oemtech]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Anyhow if this is what is happening, it is a well know problem that was recognized long ago and should be apparent to any good mechanic that the pistons are frozen or sticking in the bores. If that is the case then Bosch messed up with the design or some defective/substandard castings, pistons or seals made it into their stock. It could also be something as simple as the wrong assembly lubricant was used when they put them together causing too much swelling or a breakdown of the o-rings/seals. They should already know if that is the case from the disassembly and examination of the calipers that have already failed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Neil,

You use words like "should be apparent", "something as simple", "should already know" and so on. But, unless Workhorse, Bosch and/or NHTSA has done failure analysis or a post modem on the failed parts and make that data available you won't know. Why don't you call Workhorse and Bosch and ask for the data and post your results?

[Tenn.Vol.]

Dale, I have input into the Dodge Van, as I owned several and had at vray least
2 that had brake problems. Each time the problem was around the 75K or so.
So each time the problem would ocure I would pull over and let the brakes cool,
then drive off and know that I had my weekend work already planned for me!!!
As I remember all I did was remove the VERY FINE SILT like substance behind
the square "O" ring, and reassamble. And never had a problem on THAT van again.

The brake cooling on the Van has been the same experiance I have had with
the WH chassis, as in when they cool I can drive off with no problem.
The only thing that was in common with BOTH WH overheating problem, was
just after some VERY AGGRESSIVE BRAKING while descending hills..
Both braking problem have been on the driver side rear, first was before
WH changed 4 calibers. The second time in PA. in 07 after I smelled brakes,
and pulled over and checked the temp on the rear disk COVER.
The temp on the DUST COVER of the ovrheated one was nearly 500deg.
while the other one was less than 200deg. via the IR thermo...
But after letting them cool BOTH time I was able to drive off!!!!

Most people say I had a brake problem, which does not tell us alot.
Need to see if there is a common thread???........TENN.