Workhorse Brake Recall

[Oemtech]

Originally Posted by al koffman

I 'm having trouble understanding the statement about toad braking. If you drive like you should, plan ahead, then the toad braking system should not be engaging. I would venture to say that most of us pulling toads seldom see the toad brakes engaging. I have 45k miles on my 04 W20 and have towed a Jeep Liberty 4k pounds all of those miles , and I do not think I've seen the toad brakes engage maybe 10 times, thats because I had to get on the brakes harder than planned. I remember when all the "fun" started when some/many? started having brakes problems. Many theorized that it was the drivers fault, not knowing how to drive properly. That sure got shot down quick.

Al

Al I am not sure what Aux Braking system you have but if it is not coming on in some degree when you use the coach brakes then it is NOT functioning properly. My US Gear Unified Tow brake has provides both Progressive and Proportional Braking plus the ability to set the amount of braking I want. Lastly I can manually use the Toad braking system with the touch of a lever on the dash control module.

[acmilton71]

I,ve pulled a toad behind two different motorhomes since 1999 and just recently had my first problem and that was after an extended period of non use. I believe the problem is not in the braking system of the toad but in the sticking of the calipers after periods of non use. What precautions or how do you tell if the calipers are releasing correctly?
Darryl

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by acmilton71

What precautions or how do you tell if the calipers are releasing correctly?l

Darryl, Have you received your Interim Letter and glove box card? The card will help ID the signs and symptoms and if you turn the card over it will offer steps that you can take to remedy the situation.

[edgray]

Originally Posted by acmilton71

I,ve pulled a toad behind two different motorhomes since 1999 and just recently had my first problem and that was after an extended period of non use. I believe the problem is not in the braking system of the toad but in the sticking of the calipers after periods of non use. What precautions or how do you tell if the calipers are releasing correctly?
Darryl

Darryl: there certainly can be more than one reason for a caliper to be dragging, and the investigation has persued all possibilities. Lack of use was one of the contributing factors originally suspected by WCC, but "they" seem to have determined that "most" of the problems originate with the pistons sticking in the caliper bores.

TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION:
For me, the simplest "test" is to see if the MH will roll (on level pavement) while in gear but absent any throttle above idle. In other words, when the light turns green and you remove your foot off the brake, if it moves forward then you don't have a caliper dragging. If it won't move without stepping on the gas, then perhsps it is time to find a parking lot to pull into and check for excessive heat at one or more wheels.

We've been told that allowing things to cool down may allow the dragging condition to release and you to proceed. Retest for rolling resistance while in the parking lot before pulling out to drive, because if one is still dragging it will only get worse as heat builds up. If you persist and keep driving with dragging brakes (you have enough power to overcome the brakes) you will create enough heat to cause damage to ABS sensors (first) and rotors & pads will be the next items ruined. Repairs are expensive and time consuming, so it is much better to spend some time cooling off, rather than pressing on and hoping you are the exception to the rules.
ED

[acmilton71]

Driver
No, never received notice or card.
Darryl

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by acmilton71

Driver
No, never received notice or card.

Daryl, Please send me the last 8 digits of your VIN# and your name and address in Private Mail or eMail. I will check to see if you are listed as the owner of record.

mpelchat@irv2.com

In the meantime please review these documents.

Interim Notice & Glove Box Card

[peskyfeller]

[QUOTE=rgrstndgby;524014]

Originally Posted by peskyfeller

During the Workhorse Homecoming Rally I had the opportunity to speak with several folks from Workhorse about the Brake Recall and caliper issues. Let me tell you all right now IF YOU AREN'T USING BRAKES ON YOUR TOAD YOU WILL PAY. The number 1 problem with RV brake failures is caused by not having supplemental brakes on your tow car. It may stop with the RV brake but a lot of heat is being generated under there.


Jerry, thanks for a very "informational" post. You seem to have brought more information away from the Ralley than is typical. However, several statements are troubling to me. If this post only reflects YOUR opinion of "what Workhorse will and wont do", I have no problem, we all post our opinions here, but if they reflect what you were told is Workhorses' official position on this issue, I see Workhorse setting themselves up to "Win the Battle, Lose the War." So many of the items you mentioned, appearance of the rotors, calipers, pins etc. are so subjective, that very few will agree as to just what happened here. Surely you don't envision WH ( as well as owners) supervising every overhaul, and if not, whose opinion will be taken as official?..Is this going to be like dealing with an aftermarket Extended Warranty company?.. Imagine leaving your coach for a recall procedure, and upon retrieval, being presented with an unexpected multi hundred bill,because some judgement call made somewhere said you were the cause of the failure. Who are you going to dispute that with ?..I may be taking your post too literaly, and if so, disregard my questions, but you seem to present a somewhat Official view of this recall. ..rgr...

What I posted was completely from my notes and conversations with Workhorse representatives. Not my opinion. Believe me when I say I would LOVE to get the $1300 back I spent to replace cracked rotors in February. I'm sending in my request for compensation but I'm not holding my breath waiting for money.

The brake issues I reported on are real. Brake fluid, toad brakes, riding brakes, storage and lack of lubrication are all real contributors to this problem.

[Photog]

Thanks for the info. It is really worthwhile.

[peskyfeller]

Originally Posted by oemtech

I would sure like to know who/whom said that.... Considering the W22 has a GCVWR of 26,000 lbs and no where does it said I must use Aux Braking to ASSIST the WHCC brake system so works properly.

Hi Dale. It was Eric McCann, the Regional Service Manager for Workhorse who gave us these facts.

[Oemtech]

Well then Eric is blowing smoke.... If the braking system requires Aux braking to function properly it best be stated in the owners manual. I suspect that Eric probably meant to say that Workhorse HIGHLY RECOMMENDS the use of Aux Braking for towed units.

I towed for years without and when I finally installed my system I couldn't believe the difference. Anyone that does not have some sort of Aux Braking System is just asking for trouble.

[DriVer]

As far back as I can remember this page has been in the Workhorse Gas Motorhome Chassis Guide. What we see written is a safety measure however what we are not seeing in print is how critical it is to use auxiliary braking in order to relieve the tow vehicles of additional stresses on the towing vehicle's braking system from the perspective of the chassis builder. In the after market each auxiliary brake manufacturer makes this clear in their presentations and in a great many states it is the law.

I expect that we may see language in the Owner's Manual going forward that an auxiliary braking system is required. I believe that a person operating a vehicle with an attached load without auxiliary brakes is as you say simply asking for safety and legal problems which could be insurmountable given a perfect storm.

I do not expect that Eric is blowing smoke but is sharing the best information about this very critical function that a great many of us just take for granted. You and I both know Eric and I don't see how he could ever be tagged with a blowing smoke comment when his advice about auxiliary braking is sound and how it effects the routine operation of a motorhome chassis.

TOWING CAPACITIES
The term “GCWR”, gross combination weight rating, is a new term to be learned when the motor home operator decides to enter into the “world of towing.” GCWR refers to the maximum combined weight of the motor home with all its contents plus the weight of the trailer, car, boat, or whatever is being towed. The GCWR for Workhorse Chassis vary based on the model year and GVWR of the chassis. Please refer to the following section “1999-2006 Workhorse Recreational Vehicle Chassis,” to determine your GCWR, you must know the GVWR and model year, or refer to the MVSS label in your motor home.

To calculate a WCC Motor Home Chassis towing capacity it is a simple calculation. Take the GCWR and subtract the “actual motor home weight,” which must be equal or be less than the GVWR, the difference will equal the towing capacity (i.e. GCWR – Actual weight of motor home = Maximum towing capacity). Actual motor home weight refers to the motor home loaded for travel including fuel, water, propane, food, clothing, kitchen utensils, passengers etc. Below is an example of how to calculate your towing capacity once you have loaded and weighed your motor home.

Example:

A 2006 Workhorse chassis with a 22,000 lb. GVWR has a GCWR of 26,000 lbs. The completed motor home fully loaded, including passengers, water, LP, etc., weighs 21,000 lbs. (actual weight). Subtract actual weight of 21,000 lbs. from the GCWR of 26,000 lbs., equaling 5,000 lbs. towing capacity. The same vehicle loaded to the maximum GVWR, 22,000 lbs., would have a towing capacity of 4,000 lbs., 26,000 GCWR subtract 22,000 (actual loaded weight) equaling 4000 lbs.

Note: To help avoid personal injury due to poor braking action, adequate trailer brakes are required on trailers or vehicles over 1000 pounds loaded weight.

CAUTION:

Workhorse Custom Chassis does not provide the receiver hitches that are normally included on motor homes. If ratings are listed on the hitch, this is typically the rating of the hitch not necessarily the actual towing capacity of the vehicle, make adjustment when required.

NOTICE:

Improper wiring to towed unit can cause chassis and towed unit electrical problems. Towed unit wiring is often added and is often spliced into Workhorse Chassis wiring. Towed unit electrical requirements above 6 amps that is spliced into chassis wiring can overload the chassis turn signal and/or 4 way flasher switch resulting in switch continued failure. There are market kits that use relays such that the operating current does not go through the turn signal or 4-way flasher switch. These relay kits are recommended in place of cutting into chassis wiring.

[jdsr]

I guess the op has his opinion and I have mine. First I had three failures and never towed anything at the time. When I started to tow I purchased a aux braking system. Second, lack of owner use. My question here is why doesnt fords having this problem? Do all ford chassis owners drive theirs more than wh? NOt likly. Also my second failure happed 4-6 weeks after brake job that included new fluid and caliper pin greased. Third, do ford owners drive better(dont ride the brakes or know how to drive in mountains) than we do? Do ford chassis not drive in city traffic. Also if you will read one of the reports by nhtsa it stated one of the mh that nhtsa was testing ,the owner towed without an aux braking system but IT MADE NO DIFFERANCE in why the brakes failed. Their words, not mine. So to sum up my opinion, NHTSA has found the problem in the brake parts and not us. Thank you.

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by jdsr

I guess the op has his opinion and I have mine. First I had three failures and never towed anything at the time.

There is no evidence that states clearly that towing is the primary point of failure regarding brake caliper seizures. No one is expecting that and there certainly isn't any official language that supports that.

Second, lack of owner use.

Evidence and not conjecture is presented that has been developed by scientific method using a mass cross section now having 49,000 vehicles involved the case. The forensics indicate that vehicles that are infrequently used, typically exhibit the anomaly more so than vehicles that are driven many thousand of annual miles.

UPS delivery vehicles that use the same materials in their calipers exhibit few if any brake seizures. If it were the case that a mass amount of UPS delivery vehicles were deadlined due to stuck calipers we would have certainly have read about it it or heard from the drivers themselves. When I recently questioned a UPS driver he told me that the Workhorse delivery vans were the best in the fleet.

I have personally inspected and have seen the calipers on the 2009 Ford Super Duty F Series motorhome chassis and they are the same as what we are currently using. I don't know nor does it matter what they were using previously but the brakes they are using now are Bosch pin slide hydraulic calipers and Hydromax brake boosters. Given 4 to 5 years of ownership and typical owner maintenance on these braking systems, in my opinion Ford owners may develop the same issues. That said it would be my opinion that NHTSA, Ford and Bosch have also taken steps to make sure this isn't a problem going forward.

Also my second failure happed 4-6 weeks after brake job that included new fluid and caliper pin greased.

I can replicate this part of your comments because when I completed by initial brake service I didn't make it 18 miles down the road when by calipers seized. 4 to 6 weeks sounds like bonus time. When I experienced my failure, it occurred on the same day. There was a reason for the failure and unless your caliper(s) was replaced at the time of your service it is entirely likely that if the pistons were pushed back in their bores and new pads installed you had a follow on failure. No amount of pin lubrication and flushed fluid would have prevented this.

Also if you will read one of the reports by NHTSA it stated one of the mh that NHTSA was testing ,the owner towed without an aux braking system but IT MADE NO DIFFERANCE in why the brakes failed. Their words, not mine. So to sum up my opinion, NHTSA has found the problem in the brake parts and not us. Thank you.

jdsr, To base your comment on 1 motorhome or a dozen is certainly no where near what would be required to develop conjecture or even a factual answer in this matter and I would not care if the paper were written by the pope who is said to be infallible by the way.

It is clear to me and others that a vehicle driven with an attached load imparts physics on the towing vehicle. Perhaps that science is not important in your deliberations. So impacted, the brakes on the towing vehicle are performing duties that were not engineered into their development. This may cause premature wear and failure on those systems regardless if we are considering a gas motorhome or a 45 foot Prevost.

In South Carolina if you are towing anything over 3,000 pounds, an auxiliary braking system is mandatory. I expect that most of the owners here comply with their state statutes which can be as little as 1,000 pounds and that the majority have and use auxiliary brake systems without being told to do so by the vehicle manufacturer.

[Oemtech]

Originally Posted by DriVer

Note: To help avoid personal injury due to poor braking action, adequate trailer brakes are required on trailers or vehicles over 1000 pounds loaded weight.

Requirement? Recomendation? Legal? What?