Workhorse Brake Recall

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by oemtech

Requirement? Recommendation? Legal? What?

Dale the text as written says, "Are required." Who knows what the intent is however I can only read what is written.

The Chassis Guide BTW is not an absolute legal document like the Owner's Manual. On the other hand, the WCC-1419 Part Number and Copyright on the Chassis Guide would present that the language contained therein would indicate that the text is official and legally binding.

Now, that said, not every owner has access to a Chassis Guide "unless" they are a member of this website or have obtained one from me or others at some point in the past or have found the resource on workhorse.com.

[dugit999]

My brakes locked up a couple of months ago, it just so happened I got the recall letter the next week, my unit is a 2003 winnie 35u w22 workhorse, tracker toad. At the time I called good sams and while waiting , about 30 to 45 mins the brakes released ,as I was going to a cg close by I called good sams and cancelled the service truck. Continued on and stayed 4 days, as I was leaving they locked momentarly and then released. When I got home the letter on the recall was waiting, I called workhorse and told them what had happened, was told to contact my w/h dealer.
They put in new calipers and pins on the right hand side and pulled the left hand side and lubricated them. No charge on the replacements, I was charged for the lube and labor on the left. The mechanic said: this is a problem that has existed a long time and replacing with the same materials is just a problem waiting to repeat, soo that don't make you feel all warm and cozy about your brakeing system, if and when they get new materials and manufacture new pins and such I'll probably be too old to be affected. I don't pretend to know the cause. Like a lot of units mine does sit a lot. Maybe they will last 6 more years.

[peskyfeller]

Originally Posted by oemtech

I think you mean DOT 5 Silicone fluid and should not be mixed with DOT 3 or DOT 4. DOT 4 is just a better grade of DOT 3 with a higher dry boiling point.

Minimum DRY boiling point

• DOT 3 401° F
• DOT 4 446° F
• DOT 5 500° F

Minimum WET boiling point

• DOT 3 284° F
• DOT 4 311° F
• DOT 5 356° F

Thanks Dale, I meant Synthetic fluid. I use Raybestos Superstop DOT III with a dry boiling point of 550 degrees. Ford Super Duty DOT III also has the 550 boiling point.

[DAN L]

Originally Posted by peskyfeller

Thanks Dale, I meant Synthetic fluid. I use Raybestos Superstop DOT III with a dry boiling point of 550 degrees. Ford Super Duty DOT III also has the 550 boiling point.

DO NOT confuse dot 5.0 silicone brake fluid with dot 5.1 synthetic brake fluid. the dot 5.1 mixes with dot 3 and 4 and has a higher dry boiling point. imho dot 5.1 is more hydroscopic that dot 4 which is why i don't use it anymore. i use castrol lma synthetic dot 4.

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by DAN L

... imho dot 5.1 is more hygroscopic that dot 4 which is why i don't use it anymore. i use castrol lma synthetic dot 4.

Dan, You have made a very good point. Following up on that DOT4 is has a greater affinity for water than DOT3 but DOT4 has a higher boiling point.

One can feel reasonably confident that Workhorse and Bosch recommend DOT3 in the hydraulic system for reason. If the brake system performs as designed it probably doesn't need to run within the higher temperature ranges offered by DOT4 & DOT5.1.

I think this argument is valid. Brake fluid when used with properly working brake components doesn't get hot on its own when the vehicle is operated within its design parameters, expected speeds and loads.

Higher vehicle speeds and loads would impart and create more heat when the brakes are used and in order to compensate for that, higher rated fluids may offer relief however what is being done here is mitigating a condition outside of the design envelope.

Now if I'm racing my motorhome on the Bonneville Salt Flats , please install DOT5.1 I'm on board 100%.

One could equivocate using higher rated fluid temperatures to using stop leak in a cooling system or using a larger rated fuse in an electrical circuit. Resolve the problem and the original design, configuration or products should work just fine.

[jdsr]

Originally Posted by DriVer

There is no evidence that states clearly that towing is the primary point of failure regarding brake caliper seizures. No one is expecting that and there certainly isn't any official language that supports that.Evidence and not conjecture is presented that has been developed by scientific method using a mass cross section now having 49,000 vehicles involved the case. The forensics indicate that vehicles that are infrequently used, typically exhibit the anomaly more so than vehicles that are driven many thousand of annual miles.

UPS delivery vehicles that use the same materials in their calipers exhibit few if any brake seizures. If it were the case that a mass amount of UPS delivery vehicles were deadlined due to stuck calipers we would have certainly have read about it it or heard from the drivers themselves. When I recently questioned a UPS driver he told me that the Workhorse delivery vans were the best in the fleet.

I have personally inspected and have seen the calipers on the 2009 Ford Super Duty F Series motorhome chassis and they are the same as what we are currently using. I don't know nor does it matter what they were using previously but the brakes they are using now are Bosch pin slide hydraulic calipers and Hydromax brake boosters. Given 4 to 5 years of ownership and typical owner maintenance on these braking systems, in my opinion Ford owners may develop the same issues. That said it would be my opinion that NHTSA, Ford and Bosch have also taken steps to make sure this isn't a problem going forward.

I can replicate this part of your comments because when I completed by initial brake service I didn't make it 18 miles down the road when by calipers seized. 4 to 6 weeks sounds like bonus time. When I experienced my failure, it occurred on the same day. There was a reason for the failure and unless your caliper(s) was replaced at the time of your service it is entirely likely that if the pistons were pushed back in their bores and new pads installed you had a follow on failure. No amount of pin lubrication and flushed fluid would have prevented this.

jdsr, To base your comment on 1 motorhome or a dozen is certainly no where near what would be required to develop conjecture or even a factual answer in this matter and I would not care if the paper were written by the pope who is said to be infallible by the way.

It is clear to me and others that a vehicle driven with an attached load imparts physics on the towing vehicle. Perhaps that science is not important in your deliberations. So impacted, the brakes on the towing vehicle are performing duties that were not engineered into their development. This may cause premature wear and failure on those systems regardless if we are considering a gas motorhome or a 45 foot Prevost.

In South Carolina if you are towing anything over 3,000 pounds, an auxiliary braking system is mandatory. I expect that most of the owners here comply with their state statutes which can be as little as 1,000 pounds and that the majority have and use auxiliary brake systems without being told to do so by the vehicle manufacturer.

Did you read my post? I had 3 failures and towed NOTHING. I now tow AND ADDED AN AUX BRAKING SYS before I towed ANYTHING. I believe the brake system that is being used by ford and now wh is totally diff than the ones we are talking about. Maybe you just forgot that and that could be why there not included in the recall. Regardless about the last statement, can you answer why fords dont have this problem and are not involved in a brake recall. Please dont suggest they might have a problem later. Just answer why the f53 from 2000 to now(Heck go back to the 90's if you want) doesnt have the problems we have and are not in ANY brake recall. I've done searches on 3 sites and the data just isnt there. Now you used this quote"
jdsr, To base your comment on 1 motorhome or a dozen is certainly no where near what would be required to develop conjecture or even a factual answer in this matter and I would not care if the paper were written by the pope who is said to be infallible by the way," would be like you saying you talked to "A" ups driver and he loved the chassis. So I guess me and the POPE can disregard that statement since it was only one driver. I believe you made a mistake when you said nhtsa, "FORD" and bosch are working to make sure they dont have problems in the future. I believe you meant "WH" instead of ford. If not, could you post doc's to back up that statement that ford is working with nhtsa and bosch and the reason for it. To sum it up again. This workhorse brake issue is over and "WE" the consumer have won. Hopefully sooner or later we will get our brakes fixed. OH btw, this is just my opinion ey

[Ultra RV Products]

[quote=rgrstndgby;524014]

Originally Posted by peskyfeller

During the Workhorse Homecoming Rally I had the opportunity to speak with several folks from Workhorse about the Brake Recall and caliper issues. Let me tell you all right now IF YOU AREN'T USING BRAKES ON YOUR TOAD YOU WILL PAY. The number 1 problem with RV brake failures is caused by not having supplemental brakes on your tow car. It may stop with the RV brake but a lot of heat is being generated under there.


Jerry, thanks for a very "informational" post. You seem to have brought more information away from the Ralley than is typical. However, several statements are troubling to me. If this post only reflects YOUR opinion of "what Workhorse will and wont do", I have no problem, we all post our opinions here, but if they reflect what you were told is Workhorses' official position on this issue, I see Workhorse setting themselves up to "Win the Battle, Lose the War." So many of the items you mentioned, appearance of the rotors, calipers, pins etc. are so subjective, that very few will agree as to just what happened here. Surely you don't envision WH ( as well as owners) supervising every overhaul, and if not, whose opinion will be taken as official?..Is this going to be like dealing with an aftermarket Extended Warranty company?.. Imagine leaving your coach for a recall procedure, and upon retrieval, being presented with an unexpected multi hundred bill,because some judgement call made somewhere said you were the cause of the failure. Who are you going to dispute that with ?..I may be taking your post too literaly, and if so, disregard my questions, but you seem to present a somewhat Official view of this recall. ..rgr...

The Workhorse/Bosch brake recall has NOTHING to do with you tow braking system or lack there of. The interim inspections & repair are just to get you bt until the redisigned brake calipers come in. Every W20-W22 will be getting FOUR new brake calipers which amounts to about 50,000 chassis. So just to be clear, regardless of what you heard from whereever, Workhorse will be paying for FOUR new brake calipers on every single W20 & W22 chassis. Tow brake or no Tow brake it makes no difference on the recall. I hope this clear's up the confusion.

Mike Bronzini
Brazel's RV Performance Center
Workhorse Premier service center

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by Brazels RV Performance

So just to be clear, regardless of what you heard from wherever, Workhorse will be paying for FOUR new brake calipers on every single W20 & W22 chassis.

Mike, That's correct and thanks for sharing that with us.

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by jdsr

Re UPS driver...

I'm sure you will run into a UPS driver at some point, do some research and ask him what he thinks about Workhorse delivery trucks and whether or not he has experienced a brake failure.

I can't speak to dissimilar brake systems on Fords however since they are now using the same brakes that a Workhorse uses I can speak to that.

[rgrstndgby]

[quote=Brazels RV Performance;525154]

Originally Posted by rgrstndgby

The Workhorse/Bosch brake recall has NOTHING to do with you tow braking system or lack there of. The interim inspections & repair are just to get you bt until the redisigned brake calipers come in. Every W20-W22 will be getting FOUR new brake calipers which amounts to about 50,000 chassis. So just to be clear, regardless of what you heard from whereever, Workhorse will be paying for FOUR new brake calipers on every single W20 & W22 chassis. Tow brake or no Tow brake it makes no difference on the recall. I hope this clear's up the confusion.

Mike Bronzini
Brazel's RV Performance Center
Workhorse Premier service center

Mike, forgive me if I appear dense, but is Workhorse supplying calipers, pads, and rotors, and if not, what will be the situation if the rotors, and old pads are serviceable. Maybe if I set up a hypothetical service visit, and you can tell me what you think WH will do.. I bring my 04 W 20 in, (35000 miles), they disassemble the brakes, and say, we will put on new calipers, but we think its time for new pads, and your rotors should be turned. Who pays/what.. Suppose I dont think its time for pads, and rotors turned.. Will they put on the new calipers, shake my hand and I'm free to go.? I know I'm asking alot that is in WH's hands, but wondering if you will offer a best guess.. BTW, the concern about toad brakes is not mine...rgr...

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by rgrstndgby

...

rgr, I think it's a question that needed to be asked and I believe the answer should be straight forward.

If I may add to the discussion I believe that at the time you visit the service center if a component is compromised at the time of the caliper replacement I believe that the collaterally damaged part will also be replaced under the terms of the warranty.

Optional services such as replacement of brake pads and other items not impacted by a defective caliper I believe should be discussed with the service center to see if it makes sense to accomplish that work now or later.

I think that getting all the work completed at the time of the campaign will save time and money over having to come back later.

Just last year my brake service saw me getting all new calipers, pads, rotors, sensors and hoses. When I ultimately go to the service center to complete the campaign I expect that I will only need the 4 new calipers which will satisfy the campaign.

The only optional service that I might request as a typical owner not needing any additional hardware would be to request a complete brake fluid flush. I believe that the fee to accomplish that would be worth it.

[jdsr]

Originally Posted by DriVer

I'm sure you will run into a UPS driver at some point, do some research and ask him what he thinks about Workhorse delivery trucks and whether or not he has experienced a brake failure.

I can't speak to dissimilar brake systems on Fords however since they are now using the same brakes that a Workhorse uses I can speak to that.

No thanks. I think nhtsa has done all the research I need. IMO

[scoutmstr]

Tow a toad, don't use a supplemental braking system. I do understand tha coach will stop quicker with one. Until I can find one similiar to MG that is both proportional and progressive and controllable from the incoach activator I won't use one. But and an important but is that with my toad I am under the GVW of my vehicle. Not the GVCW but the GVW; discussed this once with WCC Chris Christy. He allowed how this is unusual but brakes on coach are enough for my particular situation.


Previous post on brake fluid from me had this link which may be helpful

Brake Fluids

[DriVer]

Originally Posted by scoutmstr

Tow a toad, don't use a supplemental braking system. I do understand that coach will stop quicker with one.

scoutmstr, ..... something to think about is that your coach will also stop much more legally as well. The law makes no provision to incorporate the weight of the toad into the GVW of the vehicle.

M&G is a good brake however SMI's Duo on the Workhorse Chassis is also a very good system and it's less invasive into the systems of the towed vehicle. It just works.

Chris Christy is a very good freind of mine and I would take him at his word. He's the man!