Workhorse "FRED"?

[jdsr]

Driver, I hope to see you there.

[edgray]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">......and you get a diesel for about $10,000.00 more than a gas equililent. For example, most Allegro's and all Allegro Bay models in the Tiffin line up are available on either the Ford (gas), Workhorse (gas), or Freightliner "FRED" chassis. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
CHUCK: Your post got me to do a little digging. Here is what I've found:

2008 Tiffin Allegro Bay 37DB MSRP (Base)
FRED chassis $157,080.00
W-24 chassis $143,010.00
Difference = $ 14,070.00 more for FRED

2008 Tiffin Allegro 34TGA MSRP (Base)
FRED chassis $125,650.00
W-22 chassis $108,710.00
Difference = $ 16,940.00 more for FRED
F-53(22K) $103,600.00
Difference = $ 5,110.00 more for W-22 ILO Ford
Difference = $ 22,050.00 more for FRED ILO Ford

The above taken from Tiffin Price sheets dated November 2007. Also, please note that the FRED used under the Allegro has lower horsepower and a lighter duty Allison than the FRED used under the Allegro Bay models.

Personally, I can justify the price difference of $5,110.00 more for the WCC W-22 over the Ford F-53 (22K GVWR) because of the 6 speed Allison tranny and 8.1L V-8 over the Ford 5 speed Torque-Shift tranny and V10 motor. However, I have a real hard time paying $14,070.00 more for a 340 HP FRED vs. a 340 HP Workhorse W-24, both front engine chassis. (Yes, I know the ISB has more torque-whoopie) The additional MPG of the diesel calculates to saving about $.12 per mile at today's fuel prices, so I would need to drive a FRED approx. 117,000 miles just to "break even" from fuel savings. I don't have enough facts to determine which costs more to maintain, but I think the gas engine is cheaper IF the scheduled PM recommendations are followed.

FWIW, I'm still wishing for a GAS powered UFO ED

[paz]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by edgray:
FWIW, I'm still wishing for a GAS powered UFO ED </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ed, having driven a UFO this January at the Tampa RV Show, I agree 100%. I'm sold on Tiffins; but unfortunately, Tiffin seems deeply committed to the FRED.

About the only reason I would consider an Allegro Bay on a FRED is for the increased CCC. If you could get a Bay on a W25.5, I would go for that. If you could get a Bay on a UFO, it would be a no-brainer for me. You would have the great handling of a UFO AND the increased CCC.

Thanks for taking the time to do the comparison.

[Bagman57]

Ed, I really didn't know exactly how big a difference the "FRED" was over the Workhorse chassis, but that is a lot of money and with #2 diesel costing about $4.00/gal, I would also prefer to have the "UFO" I'll just wait till Tiffin builds the Allegro Bay on the "UFO". In the meantime, our 2004 Allegro Bay 37DB will do the job. Regards, Chuck.

[Route 66]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Yes, I know the ISB has more torque-whoopie </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The higher torque of the diesel is one of the big advantages of a diesel and is more important than the horsepower.

Another advantage is the diesel will outlast the gas engine, will not be stressed under heavy loads and will not need numerous aftermarket accessories to optimize it.

The FRED may have a larger CCC.

However, many folks are quite satisfied with their gassers, and have received good service from them.

[Tom N]

A turbo diesel will leave an 8.1 in the dust at elevations over 5000'.

-Tom

[Gregg]

My only complaint with my Workhorse is the clutch fan noise.
When the fan is not engaged the engine noise is not a problem, I would assume the FRED has a clutch fan and the same issue would exist,
clutch fan not engaged and both engines should be relatively quiet, clutch fan engaged and I would think the fan noise would be similar.
I say this because I've been in my brothers Dodge Cummins on a long pull and when the fan engaged the noise was the same as my Workhorse.
Now how about the UFO, when that fan engages can it be heard at the front of the coach ??

[DriVer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom N:
A turbo diesel will leave an 8.1 in the dust at elevations over 5000' </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Tom, I traveled back and forth across the Rocky Mountains twice in 2005 and for the life of me I just can't see all that dust your talking about on my windshield.

I'm not saying that it can't happen but if you keep your energy levels high the 8.1L will do well climbing most grades.

[DriVer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gregg:
Now how about the UFO, when that fan engages can it be heard at the front of the coach ?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm sure if you go and sit on the bed you'll be able to hear it however the engine sound is very remote when sitting in the driver's seat. I have driven several different models of UFO.

The highly reduced or lack of engine noise is one of the key features on the UFO design. When you're driving down the road at highway speeds the engine sound is imperceptible.

[Tom N]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DriVer:
I'm not saying that it can't happen but if you keep your energy levels high the 8.1L will do well climbing most grades. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But not as well as a turbo diesel at high elevations.

-Tom

[Photog]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom N:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DriVer:
I'm not saying that it can't happen but if you keep your energy levels high the 8.1L will do well climbing most grades. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But not as well as a turbo diesel at high elevations.

-Tom </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom,

I have driven all over the Rocky Mountain region. The only times I have noticed a significant difference is at elevations over 8,000 to 9,000 feet.

I really loose power at 10,000 to 11,000, but I haven't seen any turbo diesels racing along on those high mountain passes. On most of them you can't travel safely at high speeds.

[fishboat1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom N:
A turbo diesel will leave an 8.1 in the dust at elevations over 5000' </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

................................................

I have driven the Ford V10, Workhorse and my present FRED Allegro Bay 35 footer throughout the west towing a 4600 pound 4 wheel drive truck and really have not noticed any major performance issues during high elevation driving with the three engines. Tom, I don't know how often you have driven west of New Kensington but in the west 6% plus grades with elevations over 5000 feet is the norm in some areas.

With my FRED as with my other past gassers, I usually pull ahead of the loaded 18 wheelers but really have to keep the energy level high while climbing. Of course my 35 foot FRED weighs 23000 pounds and my past gassers weighed in the 18000 pound range so the additional weight probably explains the performance differences.

[edgray]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">(Yes, I know the ISB has more torque-whoopie) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
When I added that simple little commentary "whoopie" I never imagined it would lead to a complete thread highjack! I'm sorry.

IF everyone wants to continue debating turbo diesels vs. gas and the effects of altitude, that is fine with me. Please just start a new thread, as this one started out as a question about Workhorse building a FRED. Thanks, ED

[Tom N]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fishboat1:
Tom, I don't know how often you have driven west of New Kensington but in the west 6% plus grades with elevations over 5000 feet is the norm in some areas. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've logged many miles in the Rockies, west of New Kensington, including the Trail Ridge Rd, max. elevation 12,183' in Rocky Mtn National Park (pulling a travel trailer) and Mount Evans and Pikes Peak in CO. BTW, The Mount Evans Scenic Byway is America's highest paved automobile road peaking at 14,130'.

When I run along side my buddy in his 400hp Cummins I can see a major difference on steep grades, even at much lower elevations. Do we both get there......yes. But I have to keep my "energy level" up! Up &gt;4000rpms. Although, as I've stated before, I can beat him up any onramp at sea level.

-Tom