Workhorse! Please take notes on how Toyota is handling their recall!

[DriVer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ron55 Toyota officials said they saved $100 million by successfully negotiating with the U.S. government on a limited recall of floor mats in some Toyota and Lexus vehicles, according to new documents shared with congressional investigators so much for how toyota is handling the recall

I saw this article on NBC this morning. The news banner was; "Profit Before Safety!"

It never fails, "Ultimate power corrupts ultimately," Toyota has just written another chapter in that book.

[RustyJC]

Quote:

Toyota officials said they saved $100 million by successfully negotiating with the U.S. government on a limited recall of floor mats in some Toyota and Lexus vehicles.

I don't see a huge problem with this. It doesn't say that Toyota hid anything, but rather that they discussed their response with the U.S. Government (NHTSA and/or other DOT officials, I assume) and came to a negotiated settlement. Therefore, their response at that time must have satisfied NHTSA/DOT, right?

Rusty

[GOLDWINGER2]

Toyota was great when they built simple autos, but now everything is high tech. Hybrids, throttle by wire, brake by wire, multi computers, anything can and will go wrong. But brake calipers? Not rocket science. Bosch should just build the calipers (if they can) and be done with all of this.
J

[dieselclacker]

ron55,

One could turn that statement around, and also say, so much for how our government handled the Toyota recall.

If Toyota did indeed save $100 million by negotiating with the regulating officials from our government, I am sure that Toyota stockholders considered this good business. And no, I am not a stockholder.
Seems like in this day and age, that there is more and more of this type of negotiating going on.

Dieselclacker

[DriVer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustyJC Therefore, their response at that time must have satisfied NHTSA/DOT, right?

Rusty, Perhaps that's the case. That said, does that single action implicate NHTSA as a co-conspirator in this issue if it can be proven by Congress that there was an agreement to dismiss safety for profit. Toyota has admitted as much.

Somewhere, someway, someone is going to follow the money. Everyday this issue gets more involved and deeper in controversy and now possibly conspiracy.

You get 1 party to say, I made bad floor mats and they caused this big problem but we saved money. Resolution, recall. Now get 2 people to say the same thing from opposite perspectives and it doesn't read well and I expect that in the court of public opinion that's not going to be sustained for one moment.

Let's continue to watch this unfold over the next few days to see where all this stuff shakes out. Either it'll get resolved, hushed up or it'll set off such a #### contest in Congress that you'll never hear the end of it.

[RustyJC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DriVer Rusty, Perhaps that is the case. That said, does that single action implicate NHTSA as a co-conspirator in this issue if it can be proven by Congress that there was an agreement to dismiss safety for profit. Toyota has admitted as much.

What exactly do you think is different in this case than what has taken place over the last XXX years between Workhorse, Bosch and NHTSA??

Rusty

[mythplaced]

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Originally Posted by DriVer .........an agreement to dismiss safety for profit. Toyota has admitted as much.

Sheese! Can anyone say "paranoid, conspiracy plot"......There is no such thing as an absolutely foolproof product...defects can and will happen....has anyone seen a defect free new motor home????????

Please show me proof that this is the case....Not opinion, PROOF!

The NHSTA would NOT have allowed this to happen, and Toyota has "admitted: no such thing....

Every day product engineers, designers, and safety experts weigh the "Risk/Benefit" of the products they design and produce, and there is an acronym commonly used in design circles...."ALARP"...(As Low As is Reasonable Practical) to describe that risk...

[mythplaced]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ron55 TOKYO (AP) -- Claims by Toyota in internal documents that it saved money by obtaining a limited recall from regulators in 2007 create an even bigger challenge for the automaker's president when he testifies before U.S. lawmakers this week over quality and safety lapses. Toyota officials said they saved $100 million by successfully negotiating with the U.S. government on a limited recall of floor mats in some Toyota and Lexus vehicles, according to new documents shared with congressional investigators so much for how toyota is handling the recall

Key term here is "successfully negotiating with the U.S. government" there is no foul here.

[wa8yxm]

Someone sent me an E-mail asking why a message he'd seen from we appears to be deleted... I won't attempt to repost the message and for the record I'm not complaining about the deletion since it seems others have posted nearly identical links... One of the links, which by the way required a follow up (i will not provide either link here but will say what they were) had to do with the president of Toyota declining an "invitation" to speak before congress... The update.. He accepted the invitation and will speak before congress.

I don't see Congress calling Alan (Workhorse customer support chief) in for a chat.

That said. I was speaking with my Choir director yesterday.. She is looking for a new car and seriously considering Toyota.. She pointed out that both Ford and GM have had issues in the past.. though I disagree with her on the GM issue she mentioned.

There is a long tradition of auto companies trying to cover up defects and getting burned.. Examples include the Ford Pinto Gas tank, the Explorer "Roll-a-matics" and the one the director and I disagreeon is the GM side saddle gas tank on pickups (The national news magazine that showed one of 'em blowing up..Well.. the tank was rigged to blow by a SP/FX specialist) The only actual case of one of those tanks blowing I know of (Now I do admit to limited knowledge) was because someone built a cage around the tank to protect it, and the cage pierced the tank and dumped raw gas all over and WOOSH it went up.

The investigators concluded it would not have done that if not for the mod.

FORD paid millions, Toyota will. GM was not found to be at fault by the courts and in the case of Workhorse, there have been no deaths.

[DriVer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustyJC What exactly do you think is different in this case than what has taken place over the last XXX years between Workhorse, Bosch and NHTSA??

Rusty, I think you're reaching! I can't see how Workhorse is embroiled in a safety vs profit motive especially given the fact that Bosch 66mm calipers are used widely throughout the industry in both RV and commercial applications with typically good results.

There aren't any fatalities or injuries in this case. The smoking gun it would seem has been presented by NHTSA in all the documentation that has been presented to Workhorse owners, a resolution to the issue is on the radar screen and we're waiting for parts.

That is my opinion of what's different.

[RustyJC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DriVer Rusty, I think you're reaching!

I'm not reaching at all. Every recall involves discussions between the OEM, the component manufacturer and NHTSA, right?

For instance:

Ford - Firestone - NHTSA in the Explorer rollover case that ultimately resulted in the changeout of certain Firestone tires.

Ford - Texas Instruments - NHTSA in the cruise control switch case that burned down vehicles, homes, etc. How many times has THIS recall been expanded over the years??

So, are you saying that there were no discussions between Workhorse, Bosch and NHTSA that ultimately determined whether or not a recall was required, and, if so, the scope of the recall? This is precisely what took place between Toyota and NHTSA - now, if someone wants to spin it to sling more mud on Toyota, I guess they can try, but it's nothing different than happens in every one of these situations.

Rusty

[mythplaced]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wa8yxm I don't see Congress calling Alan (Workhorse customer support chief) in for a chat.

Only because :

1. the media hasn't latched on to the "DANGER ON OUR HIGHWAYS" posed by these 15 ton behemoths with "questionable brakes" (ALL mfg that use Bosch 66 mm pin slide calipers (Not just WH)
2. the fact that this affects 50-75 K vehicles, not 9000000!
3. the senators and representatives don't need the "media exposure" that these "worthless" committee interrogations fuel.

If there was a similar media frenzy you would see the president of BOSCH in front of Congress

[DriVer]

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Originally Posted by mythplaced If there was a similar media frenzy you would see the president of BOSCH in front of Congress

I believe you're right.
Since this issue only has a life in the RV Industry and not commercial applications Bosch can assume a position that their product works as designed. Workhorse's application of the Bosch brakes isn't remarkable and there aren't any anomalies that I have seen that are different from the same equivalent commercial chassis vs an RV chassis that are built on the same production line. Commercial chassis with 66mm brakes do exceptionally well and you can see these same calipers installed by many other RV OEMs as well.

[DriVer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustyJC .... now, if someone wants to spin it to sling more mud on Toyota, I guess they can try, but it's nothing different than happens in every one of these situations ...

Rusty, Not specifically addressing any portion of your post however in this regard, I'm not slinging mud, I turn on my TV (CNN at the moment) and it's on all the major News programs. I'm just going to be patient and watch what happens to the money.

You would have to at least wrinkle an eyebrow is someone saved $100,000 on a carpet that was later recalled and found to have caused safety issues.

I am getting also getting a bit shell shocked from all the money Toyota is putting in recall commercials. The money that Toyota will have spent in Media advertising will no doubt exceed the entire cost of the Bosch brake recall.

At the end of the day, all of this will eventually get resolved, those US auto workers in Indiana get to keep their jobs and Toyota goes back to building the cars they know they are capable of building.