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Old 12-19-2014, 05:09 AM   #1
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1983 Tioga E350 Fuel to Carb issue

Hi All,

I'm new here. I've tried Ford forums with no help so far so I thought I'd try here. Glad to be here and I hope to learn more and hopefully help others where I can.

So I recently picked up a 1983 20 ft. Tioga Fleetwood E350 with a 7.5 liter 460. It was sitting for about 7 yrs. Ran before parked. So I did all the proper preparation before trying to turn it over. My issue is when I turned the key on I didn't hear the fuel pump do anything. I'm not sure if it is factory... but it has an inline electric fuel pump mounted to the frame right after the gas tank (1 tank only) with a small metal fuel filter "barrel" which is in between the tank and the fuel pump. But it wasn't doing anything at all. So I pulled the hose off the fuel filter, no gas. I pulled the hose off of the outlet of the pump, no gas. So I just assumed the pump was dead and I went to Napa and purchased a similar pump not exact but similar. I connected the wires and turned on the key and it makes a really loud noise but it is definitely pumping fuel out of the outlet now. Not sure why this new pump is so loud and why it constantly stays on when key is in on position. In my experience pumps just prime for a few seconds then shut down. Anyway, I moved up the frame closer to the front and pulled one of the rubber hoses off the fuel line to see if fuel was getting to that point and it was. From there the fuel lines disappear into the engine compartment. So I assumed fuel was being pumped to the carb. I went to turn the key on and the pump just chatters as it pumps really loudly with the key in the on position, It also shuts off while cranking the engine. Anyhow, still no signs of fuel getting to the carb. When I spray starting fluid in the carb the engine fires right up and quickly shuts down after it burns the starting fluid. No fuel smell anywhere near the carb. Does anyone have any idea where to look or what to check for? Can these lines be clogged? Could the fuel be blocked somewhere? Should I check for a filter at the carb inlet, could that be blocking fuel? I also noticed it has a "hot fuel bypass orfice or "T", right before the carb I pulled the line going into the top to see if there was fuel there not even knowing exactly what I was looking at at the time (I read what that was later) but no fuel there either. Not sure if there was supposed to be fuel there but there wasn't. Can these lines be blown back with air if I disconnect at the carb and in the rear? Anyway thank you for reading and I look forward to hearing from you! Thanks in advance, any help will be greatly appreciated! Cheers!
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Old 12-19-2014, 05:49 AM   #2
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If you have the hot fuel bypass then you should have a fuel pump in the fuel tank.
As far as I know all of these came out with two fuel tanks and you say you have only one.
They did not come out with a fuel pump on the frame or a fuel filter on the frame.
Yes there is a fuel filter that screws into the carb.

It sounds like someone has done a lot rework to the fuel system and the system not stock. I normally do not post in threads that are about non stock systems for obvious reasons.
I have no idea if the hot fuel bypass fuel still goes back to a fuel tank or not. The power for the fuel pump normally is not hot unless the engine is cranking or the key is on with engine oil pressure in the normal range. You say the power to the fuel pump is only hot with the key in the on position and not in the cranking position. So someone has also rewired the wiring from the way Ford designed it.

With what I have said above is why no one responded to you on the other site as they had no way to help you with a non stock system.

As far as blowing air back most if not all frame type fuel pumps have a check valve in them to keep the fuel from going back to the fuel tank. So no you cannot blow air back to the tank from the supply line at the carb. The line from the hot fuel bypass however if it is still factory should allow air back to the fuel tank.

Note also that you might want to read theses two threads as the RV in them and the diagrams and photos is how yours should have been when it was new.
I'm stuck!

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Trying to leave! Carb problems or something else?

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Old 12-19-2014, 06:20 AM   #3
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I will agree that the pump should shut off after it builds up pressure in the line. since this one does not and fuel is not running out on the ground or the carburetor is not overflowing, then the fuel has to returning to the tank in the hot fuel return line. I would change the filter at the carb and plug the return line and try it then. The only other thing I can think of is a hole in the fuel line between the tank and the pump so that the pump is sucking air and trying to pressurize it.

Please let us know what you find. I am curious about your problem.
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Old 12-19-2014, 07:05 AM   #4
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I will agree that the pump should shut off after it builds up pressure in the line.
Why do you say that?

No Ford fuel pump shuts off by pressure on 1997 and older RV's. Power is never removed while the engine is cranking or running.

Not sure on the 1999 an newer Fords that have the pressure sensors.
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Old 12-19-2014, 07:24 PM   #5
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I would say that because he bought a new fuel pump, not a 1997 pump. I would think that it is a generic electric fuel pump, not Ford specific. He said it was similar, but not an exact match.
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Old 12-20-2014, 12:21 AM   #6
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Lepsr55,
Listen to subford he is the best person on forum to help you. Subford is correct you should have two tanks with internal pumps in them. One tank in the rear and the other one outside the frame rail on the drivers side. I had an 84 Tioga for a short while that had been sitting for 10 years before I got it. Before I got it someone put an external pump on it, but it didn't work because the fuel pickups in both tanks had broken off in the tanks. If your serious about making yours a dependable MH you need to correct the wiring. You say the fuel filter is between the tank and the pump, normally pumps push through the filter not pull through it. Good luck with your project. I finally gave the 84 to a guy that worked for me. He loves the MH, his family uses it all the time, hauls a huge trailer loaded with toys to Borrego several times a year.
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Old 12-20-2014, 06:37 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subford View Post
If you have the hot fuel bypass then you should have a fuel pump in the fuel tank.
As far as I know all of these came out with two fuel tanks and you say you have only one.
They did not come out with a fuel pump on the frame or a fuel filter on the frame.
Yes there is a fuel filter that screws into the carb.

It sounds like someone has done a lot rework to the fuel system and the system not stock. I normally do not post in threads that are about non stock systems for obvious reasons.
I have no idea if the hot fuel bypass fuel still goes back to a fuel tank or not. The power for the fuel pump normally is not hot unless the engine is cranking or the key is on with engine oil pressure in the normal range. You say the power to the fuel pump is only hot with the key in the on position and not in the cranking position. So someone has also rewired the wiring from the way Ford designed it.

With what I have said above is why no one responded to you on the other site as they had no way to help you with a non stock system.

As far as blowing air back most if not all frame type fuel pumps have a check valve in them to keep the fuel from going back to the fuel tank. So no you cannot blow air back to the tank from the supply line at the carb. The line from the hot fuel bypass however if it is still factory should allow air back to the fuel tank.

Note also that you might want to read theses two threads as the RV in them and the diagrams and photos is how yours should have been when it was new.
I'm stuck!

and

Trying to leave! Carb problems or something else?

/
Thank you for your reply. I have spent a lot of time under the RV and I looked for a second tank and even looked for a selector valve Because I keep reading that they did have two but I did not see either. Is the second tank not obvious? All I saw was the holding tanks, one gas tank towards the rear, and the propane tank. I agree that it sounds like someone may have done some reworking of the fuel system. The fuel pump is not ford it is just an aftermarket one I picked up from Napa. I noticed a wire tied into the fuse box that if disconnected the pump does not turn on. So I believe it to be the hot to the pump and it does not seem original. But It does shut down while cranking and stays on with key in on position. What I'm hearing is maybe I should try to replace the original "in tank" fuel pump and make it stock again and try to wire it back to stock as well? Also check the filter at the carb. Where was the original fuel filter supposed to be? Thanks again.
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Old 12-20-2014, 06:41 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halfwright View Post
I will agree that the pump should shut off after it builds up pressure in the line. since this one does not and fuel is not running out on the ground or the carburetor is not overflowing, then the fuel has to returning to the tank in the hot fuel return line. I would change the filter at the carb and plug the return line and try it then. The only other thing I can think of is a hole in the fuel line between the tank and the pump so that the pump is sucking air and trying to pressurize it.

Please let us know what you find. I am curious about your problem.
It's very odd because I see the fuel getting about halfway towards the engine. I was able to check it right there by taking the rubber off of the metal part of the line. But from there it's all metal lines all the way to the carb. But no sign of fuel at the carb. No fuel spilling and no leaks that I can see. Thanks.
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Old 12-20-2014, 06:46 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by chboone View Post
Lepsr55,
Listen to subford he is the best person on forum to help you. Subford is correct you should have two tanks with internal pumps in them. One tank in the rear and the other one outside the frame rail on the drivers side. I had an 84 Tioga for a short while that had been sitting for 10 years before I got it. Before I got it someone put an external pump on it, but it didn't work because the fuel pickups in both tanks had broken off in the tanks. If your serious about making yours a dependable MH you need to correct the wiring. You say the fuel filter is between the tank and the pump, normally pumps push through the filter not pull through it. Good luck with your project. I finally gave the 84 to a guy that worked for me. He loves the MH, his family uses it all the time, hauls a huge trailer loaded with toys to Borrego several times a year.
The only thing I see under there is a propane tank in that area. I am thinking I will need to rewrite it back to stock and fix the original pump in the tank. I am going to pull the gas tank tomorrow and check the filter at the carb. I think I will also try to blow air through the lines while they are disconnected. Thanks for your input!
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Old 12-20-2014, 10:30 PM   #10
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Have you tried to break the line at the inlet to the fuel bypass to see if you have fuel to the valve? Could have a plug there. With the pump running you should always have a small amount of fuel to the tank return line. Be careful with the bypass valve, I don't think there are available any longer. If you need to replace it, you can try to find a good one at Pick-A-Part. Good idea to drop the tank to replace the pump and clean out the bad fuel in it. Yes the second tank and selector valve would be obvious, along with the second filler tube. Besure and check the sending unit, the one in 84 was bad.
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Old 12-21-2014, 08:48 AM   #11
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First off do you have a Mechanical Fuel pump on the engine?
I read someplace but can not fine it in any of my manuals that there was a Mechanical Fuel pump that had two inputs, one from the fuel tank and one from the hot fuel bypass valve. It had one output going to the hot fuel bypass valve.
I can not find one of these in any part look up either. That is why I ask if you have a Mechanical Fuel pump bolted to the left side of the engine (drivers side) front cover down low.

If you have one of these then you would not have pump in the tank.
My 1983 E350 class "C" RV had just a Mechanical Fuel pump and not one in either tank. It also had a add on electric non Ford fuel pump on the frame with a switch on the dash. It did not have the hot fuel (vapor) bypass valve.

If you have no provision on the side of your RV for another place to put fuel in a mid ship tank then it more than likely came out with only one tank.

You can see the shiny fuel pump location low and on the right side of the photo below:


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Old 12-21-2014, 11:35 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subford View Post
First off do you have a Mechanical Fuel pump on the engine?
I read someplace but can not fine it in any of my manuals that there was a Mechanical Fuel pump that had two inputs, one from the fuel tank and one from the hot fuel bypass valve. It had one output going to the hot fuel bypass valve.
I can not find one of these in any part look up either. That is why I ask if you have a Mechanical Fuel pump bolted to the left side of the engine (drivers side) front cover down low.

If you have one of these then you would not have pump in the tank.
My 1983 E350 class "C" RV had just a Mechanical Fuel pump and not one in either tank. It also had a add on electric non Ford fuel pump on the frame with a switch on the dash. It did not have the hot fuel (vapor) bypass valve.

If you have no provision on the side of your RV for another place to put fuel in a mid ship tank then it more than likely came out with only one tank.

You can see the shiny fuel pump location low and on the right side of the photo below:


/
There is no mechanical fuel pump that I can see on the engine nor did I see a metal plate or any kind of cover where a mechanical fuel pump once was. I also did not see a 2nd fuel tank under the rv and I definitely do not see another fuel cap on the outside of the rv. I'm beginning to think that I do have an original fuel pump in the tank as I can see some wires going into the top of the tank. Is there somewhere that I can find a wiring diagram for the fuel system. I think i'm going to attempt to install a new pump in the tank and wire it the original way it was supposed to be. What's the best way to clean the tank out?
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Old 12-21-2014, 11:42 AM   #13
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I have broke that line and did not see any fuel and did not smell any fuel either. I have a feeling there is a clog in the line between the last rubber fuel line and the carb. Because I did see fuel flowing up to that point but not up to the carb.
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Old 12-21-2014, 05:05 PM   #14
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Diagram for one fuel tank:


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