Catalytic converter help.

[Kevoz]

I am in the midst of replacing the exhaust system with a Banks Power pack package. I have a 93 Damon Challenger with the Ford 460/F53 chassis. I have the package and it includes everything to include my existing catalytic converter for the installation. My concern is the converter, being restrictive, and since they quit installing them in 94 on this chassis, removing it. I know I will have all kinds of flames wanting me to leave it, but I plan to gut it and reinstall it. I have all the exhaust system removed up to the converter and discovered tubes and pipes going into it and wonder the best way to work around all these tubes. I can remove the tubes and weld up the holes on the converter, I really dont want to create a problem and want to go the right direction as I only want to do this once...
cheers,
Kevo

[LVJ58]

It's possible those tubes and pipes may supply exhaust gasses to a sensor for input to your engine control module (computer), but not sure. I would check it out with a shop that works on exhaust systems.

Good luck and let us know how things work out...

[pacevette]

I just went through this last winter on a 1997 mercury cougar. I found that ford went crazy on emissions. Anyways, my converters plugged up and blew the metal tubes apart. These tubes, as mentioned above, are attached to rubber hoses that then go to a sensor. I gutted the cats and everything was fine. But there is a catch....the O2 sensors are going to give you a false code because the exhaust is not getting hot enough to burn off excess fuel/exhaust. So I had to pull out all of my O2 sensors( I had 4 of them on a v6..overkill?) Then I had to wire them up in a series so the computer would think that everything was fine. I tried to just unhooking them and plugging the holes in the exhaust but the computer wouldn't let that happen. It was very frustrating to say the least.

[pacevette]

One more thing....your normal everyday exhaust shop will not do this. They can face a hefty fine for messing with cats and 02 sensors.

[HotMech]

Ok, here it is.

Why is it that people resort to removing, that which they know nothing about?

Let me start with this, I have been a Tech for more years than I care to admit anymore.

I have also been a Certified Emissions tech and tester in the past. In fact, I was in the first program that Colorado started, back in the 80's.

Despite what others will tell you, there is minimal, if any gain in "tampering" with any of the emissions systyems in place on anything Post '90's. In fact, some things people would do, can and do reduce power.

I've been building "performance" vehicles for years, and not once has one of my engines, ever failed an area emission test.,,, NOT 1!
They can also smoke the tires off, on command.

If I were building an all out race vehicle, then no, does not need a cat.
But then again, it only runs on weekends, at the track. all legal.

Street licensed, street legal vehicles are not race cars.

I don't know what air you breathe, but I do believe it's the same air I Breathe. ...and it's only getting worse.

not to mention, everything you are planning is a Federal Offense.
Read the laws.

Build it within the laws limits, and everyone will be happier.

Now, for one last comment, A lot of folks on this forum, seem to like and use the services of 5 Star Tuning. Call them up and ask, if they need to remove the Cat, to achive the gains they get.

Kerry

PS. they are building a turbo system for the 2 valve v-10's. I'm first in line.

[WeatherTodd]

hotmech... you went and typed all that to qualify your answer and then left us hanging.
Outside of CA or any emissions nazi state... i know of nobody that reuses emissions equipment. Most modify intake/exhaust systems because they have the ability to tune the vehicle for maximum horsepower/torque at the expense of restrictive/heavy emissions equipment/canned factory EPA compliant tunes.

[Topflite51]

HotMech,

You can lead them to the water trough, but you will never be able to make them drink from it. You will have more luck convincing a certain breed that the world is flat.

Just a humble old retired emissions certified ASE Master's opinion.

[RLS7201]

Kevo, Here is some food for thought. Banks web site shows the same HP and torque gains for 88-93 and 94-98. If your MH has an O2 sensor down stream from the cat, defeating the cat will make the engine computer unhappy. If you cat don't show signs of melt down on the leading edges of the honey comb, it won't restrict your exhaust.

Richard
95 Bounder F53

[donandmax]

Hot Mech is right. Engines are built around the emissions equiptment and I took off the emissions stuff once on an old 79 MG Midget and the thing ran and idled terrible. I put it all back together and it ran like it should and brought the power back. Learned my lesson and never screwed with emissions stuff again. Its like many years ago when I added dual mufflers to my 51 Ford. V8 all I got was more noise and no power increase. More noise was giving me the impression I had more power all it did was lighten my wallet. It amazes me that auto mfs. pay engineers thousands and thousands of dollars to make cars quieter and then these young kids take them off and put on some tin can muffler so they can get some attention from the people who hate the noise and them. Your on board computer will like it much better if you leave things the way they were designed. The enviroment will like it too. Just my 2 cents

[WeatherTodd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by donandmax Hot Mech is right. Engines are built around the emissions equiptment and I took off the emissions stuff once on an old 79 MG Midget and the thing ran and idled terrible. I put it all back together and it ran like it should and brought the power back. Learned my lesson and never screwed with emissions stuff again. Its like many years ago when I added dual mufflers to my 51 Ford. V8 all I got was more noise and no power increase. More noise was giving me the impression I had more power all it did was lighten my wallet. It amazes me that auto mfs. pay engineers thousands and thousands of dollars to make cars quieter and then these young kids take them off and put on some tin can muffler so they can get some attention from the people who hate the noise and them. Your on board computer will like it much better if you leave things the way they were designed. The enviroment will like it too. Just my 2 cents

Your experience showed you that YOU and ONLY YOU shouldnt mess with modifiying vehicles for better performance.
Your assertion that engineers spend lots of time and effort to design emissions system for optimum performance is hilarious... the systems are designed for the ignorant consumer MASSES that dont check their oil or tire pressure or trade in a vehicle that needs minor repair.

There are exceptionally innovative, talented and smart folk that work outside of detroit that are just as capable as designing a quality exhaust system and intake systems. For most folk... how the factory built it is "good enough". There are others that are more descriminating and demand alot of performance/reliability from their vehicles.

[mr300ce]

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeatherTodd Your experience showed you that YOU and ONLY YOU shouldnt mess with modifiying vehicles for better performance. Your assertion that engineers spend lots of time and effort to design emissions system for optimum performance is hilarious... the systems are designed for the ignorant consumer MASSES that dont check their oil or tire pressure or trade in a vehicle that needs minor repair. There are exceptionally innovative, talented and smart folk that work outside of detroit that are just as capable as designing a quality exhaust system and intake systems. For most folk... how the factory built it is "good enough". There are others that are more descriminating and demand alot of performance/reliability from their vehicles.

Yes, Yes, but are YOU one of them ???

If you do some reseach, you will find that all the 'reputable' companies that build and/or install those 'power enhancing' after-market products leave the emmision reducing components in place.

And they do get HP & torque gains. But one important thing to keep in mind: it all cost $$.....so you must weigh the expense for the amount of gain you get.

I have been reading this & several other RV forums for a long time, and have read many posts about doing some of those 'improvements'......but then NOT getting any benefit. Waste of $$$ is what some will say.

[HotMech]

Just a quick update.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying, don't modify your vehicle.

By all means, spend that money. but do it with a little respect for the air we all breathe. That's all I'm saying.

To pacevette, and all others who may not know about 'all these O2 sensors'.
the auto industy did not put these things in your vehicle to 'piss you off'.
They are responding to limits set, and demaneds made, by the EPA.
The front sensor, or sensors, (the ones in front of the cat) are to tell the engine computer fuel mixture information, so it can adjust the mixture for the best power and emission levels, and so that the cat can have the correct environment to acctually work, i.e. get hot.
The rear, or Downstream O2 sensor, or sensors, relay information to the engine computer, as to how the cats are performing, so that it then may turn on the check engine light if that performance starts to degrade. This is where the EPA comes in.

I'm all for more power, and even high performance, but, at the same time, I'd like to be able to breathe some clean air.

Kerry

[WeatherTodd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr300ce Yes, Yes, but are YOU one of them ??? If you do some reseach, you will find that all the 'reputable' companies that build and/or install those 'power enhancing' after-market products leave the emmision reducing components in place. And they do get HP & torque gains. But one important thing to keep in mind: it all cost $$.....so you must weigh the expense for the amount of gain you get. I have been reading this & several other RV forums for a long time, and have read many posts about doing some of those 'improvements'......but then NOT getting any benefit. Waste of $$$ is what some will say.

Every vehicle I own has an aftermarket exhaust system built from better materials than stock and significantly lighter. Every vehicle I own has the ability to be tuned for weather conditions.
Im not some toothless trailer dweller that resorts to caveman tactics with a hacksaw and flex pipe.
I have a full understanding of emissions equipment and their functions.

[WeatherTodd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HotMech Just a quick update. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying, don't modify your vehicle. By all means, spend that money. but do it with a little respect for the air we all breathe. That's all I'm saying. To pacevette, and all others who may not know about 'all these O2 sensors'. the auto industy did not put these things in your vehicle to 'piss you off'. They are responding to limits set, and demaneds made, by the EPA. The front sensor, or sensors, (the ones in front of the cat) are to tell the engine computer fuel mixture information, so it can adjust the mixture for the best power and emission levels, and so that the cat can have the correct environment to acctually work, i.e. get hot. The rear, or Downstream O2 sensor, or sensors, relay information to the engine computer, as to how the cats are performing, so that it then may turn on the check engine light if that performance starts to degrade. This is where the EPA comes in. I'm all for more power, and even high performance, but, at the same time, I'd like to be able to breathe some clean air. Kerry

The EPA does not have the interest of the vehicle owner in mind. They are trying to regulate the mindless idiots that drive their vehicles 2 miles or sit idle in a drive thru waiting on a 4,000 calorie breakfast/lunch/snack.

Most folks I know chuckle at the notion of using a golf cart for local errands. Imagine if the resources used by the EPA for vehicle emission standards went towards educating the masses about the use of bicycles and zero emission vehicles.