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Old 08-17-2010, 11:43 AM   #29
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Suggestions not just criticism

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Originally Posted by jcthorne View Post
I will need to take photos and post them I guess. Yours may be different. My chassis is 22k, not 18. I checked the full suspension travel. The lower limit of the axel travel is the shock extension as designed. The bar and endlinks never binds up. The shocks reach full extension first. Yes, the angle between the link and the bar does get larger as the axel drops but it never reaches anywhere near 180 deg. Also, when the suspension is leaned over, the angle gets larger on one side and smaller on the other. The force on both sides is equal and opposite, trying to right the coach to a verticle position.

Looking at your photos again, are you sure your bar is not upside down? Perhaps its the angle the photos are taken at but my bar the section where the holes are is much closer to horizontal rather than pointed up at that large angle when the suspension is loaded.

Also, Helwig offers replacement end links in various adjustable lengths for under $100 that could correct the angles you are seeing.
Hellwig 7962 - Hellwig Suspension Components - Overview - SummitRacing.com

The bar is not upside down. Turn it the other way and the bar will hit the springs. Another member stated his looked the same as mine and he has 22K chassis. I'm the one who suggested a fix to your proposed changes. I don't believe in just being negative to an idea. I could see a way to perhaps remedy the method and stated so. Biggest problem you have with relocating mount point is the engine support cross member is in the way. Just as it was for Ford.

I'll wait for your photos. Do them the same as I did. Frontal views don't do anything.
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Old 08-17-2010, 02:15 PM   #30
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My 2007 22K Windsport F53 with 22.5 wheels looks exactly like the photos supplied so far. I don't see how the second set of holes could be reached.
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Old 08-17-2010, 06:14 PM   #31
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OK OK. here is a quick photo from my PDA. I really get tired of folks on the internet who have not done things telling those that have done something that it cannot work or will not fit. Happens again and again on many forums. I did not post theory. I posted what I had DONE.

That said, the photo clearly shows the angle between the sway bar arm and the end link is FAR less than 180deg and the photo is taken with the axel in the fully down, hanging on the shock aborber position. Since the shock is outboard of the sway bars, articulation of the axel in either direction will move this mounting point closer to the frame, IE lessening the angle.

I will admit that longer endlinks could make the bar even more effective, but the improvement over the stock geometry is incredible. It is NOT a 'WOW FACTOR' from the suspension binding up on the end link.



You were correct about the bar being right side up, looking at mine, it could not be reversed. I was comparing you photo to my memory, which I admit can be faulty.
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Old 08-17-2010, 07:16 PM   #32
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Has anyone tried checking with Ford as to why there is a second set of holes?? I can't see Ford spending .10 cents for a second set of holes if they are never used.
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Old 08-17-2010, 07:22 PM   #33
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You are pulling on your sway bar bracket

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OK OK. here is a quick photo from my PDA. I really get tired of folks on the internet who have not done things telling those that have done something that it cannot work or will not fit. Happens again and again on many forums. I did not post theory. I posted what I had DONE.

That said, the photo clearly shows the angle between the sway bar arm and the end link is FAR less than 180deg and the photo is taken with the axel in the fully down, hanging on the shock aborber position. Since the shock is outboard of the sway bars, articulation of the axel in either direction will move this mounting point closer to the frame, IE lessening the angle.

I will admit that longer endlinks could make the bar even more effective, but the improvement over the stock geometry is incredible. It is NOT a 'WOW FACTOR' from the suspension binding up on the end link.



You were correct about the bar being right side up, looking at mine, it could not be reversed. I was comparing you photo to my memory, which I admit can be faulty.

Your sway bar is doing exactly what I said it would. When your chassis rebounds you are pulling on your axle bracket. When your chassis rises due to swaying your sway bar is being pull in a straight line and is not rotating tortionally. As I also stated it is only 3 inches away from being a straight line pull. As long as you're satisfied that all that matters but telling others to do the same is another matter. Get longer link bars before yours snap and the sway bar nosedives into the pavement.

I never doubted you had DONE IT. I never picked on you so take it easy. I even suggested the fix to your method. I don't need to stick my hand in fire to realize I'll get burned. Your WOW experience made me think. Not even the aftermarket sway bar sellers say you will get more than a 20% decrease in roll.

The roll problem is exagerrated by overloaded chassis designs. Either in front or the back.

Good luck with your shade tree mechanics.

Earlier today I read a post about the end breaking off a link bar. The poster is going to weld it back together!? I left him alone. What would be the point? I'd just be PICKING ON HIM.

It's not worth it.

My old pal Red from the Red Green show would have duct taped the axles and frame together. I figure about 10 rolls should do it. Why mess with wrenches and such.
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Old 08-17-2010, 07:36 PM   #34
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Extra holes

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Has anyone tried checking with Ford as to why there is a second set of holes?? I can't see Ford spending .10 cents for a second set of holes if they are never used.

There are holes all over your chassis. Used during manufacturing. An "extra" hole does not mean to use it for anything.

I'm done with this. Good luck to all. You will need it.
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Old 08-17-2010, 08:18 PM   #35
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You still did not read what I wrote. The end link NEVER pulls directly on the end of the sway bar as the angle NEVER flatens out. I took the photo in that position up on jacks with the axel at its LOWERMOST point of travel to show the worst case condition. IE full rebound limit in your jargon. The travel limit is the shock, NOT the sway bar as it is on the original configuration.

My sway problem is NOT an overloaded chassis. My rough ride MAY be from an UNDERLOADED chassis but that is not this conversation. My chassis has over 3500lbs of CCC, over 1500 of that on the front.

I checked the limits of travel to be sure the problem you discribe cannot happen. If I had found otherwise, I would have purchased longer end links and installed before posting. Position of the sway bar after suspension modification is something I have had to address many times in truck and 4WD suspensions. The real problem is that the bars are very undersized for the very high center of gravity these newer coaches have. Ford needs to improve the design. The fact that a 16k up to a 24k chassis have the same diameter bars is proof enough that real world applicaitons are not proper. Perhaps its the coach builder that should be addressing this. Or at least the CG vs sway bar size issue should be mentioned in the body builders manual for the coach builder to consider. Not addressing it is what has lead to the problem.

Also, please do not alarm folks. When a sway bar end link breaks, the bar will not 'nose dive into the pavement' There is simply no way to break BOTH end links at the same time. As soon as one is broken, the other is completely unloaded and the bar is in its resting position.
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Old 08-17-2010, 09:29 PM   #36
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Good Job, jctthorne

Nicely put, jcthorne.

My 16K chassis looks the same as yours in front. I am reasonably sure the link and sway bar will never go completely straight. There just isn't that much suspension travel on these things. And, my guess is, if it did, it wouldn't be that big a deal. It would pull on the sway bar brackets but they are pretty beefy and the upper limit of the the load applied wouldn't exceed the unsprung weight of one axle end which is only around 300 pounds for tire, wheel, hub and rotor, brake caliper and a little bit of the beam axle.

My motorhome, by the way, is not overloaded either. I have weighed it several times to make sure the weight is not creeping up.

Once again, despite all the talk, my motorhome is way more pleasant to drive since the change. There are always risks involved in any modification from stock so anyone contemplating this change should keep that in mind.

"Shade Tree Engineering"? Not really. More like a carefully considered modification by a mechanical engineer with 48 years design and development experience in the automotive and heavy truck industry, with a lot of those years involved in vehicle testing both on test tracks and public roads in the United States and Europe. And a bunch of years evaluating chassis, suspension and brake field problems on medium and heavy truck chassis all over the US.
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Old 08-18-2010, 05:39 AM   #37
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i think i cured some of my rocking and a rollin, by adding air bags on the front and running about 18# of air in them. i think i will change the end link mount on the rear sway bar also. i think you are correct about ford using the same sway bars on all their chassis, and with these heavier and taller boxes, they really roll on those uneven driveways and gutters etc. this has been an interesting thread.
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Old 08-18-2010, 11:19 AM   #38
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+1 on another engineer doing this on his own motorhome. 25 year engineer with Ford and suspension experience to be exact.

I only did my rear though. Did it a long time ago. The angles didn't look to favorable up front. Not as bad as above though, I'd definitely be looking for some longer links if mine looked like that. I have a track bar up front which lowers the roll center (and raises roll stiffness) so I'm not as eager to add stiffness up front anyway.

And on the side to side motion caused by driveways at angles and such. More roll stiffness can make that WORSE as the wheels aren't as free to follow the twist of the road. Gotta be careful in what you think the problem really is.
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Old 08-18-2010, 02:00 PM   #39
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I ordered a set of longer adjustable end links. I'll post back photos and thoughts when I get them. Still FAR cheaper than the aftermarket sway bar choices.
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Old 08-18-2010, 06:02 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WOODYDEL View Post
There are holes all over your chassis. Used during manufacturing. An "extra" hole does not mean to use it for anything.

I'm done with this. Good luck to all. You will need it.
You said it I didn't, there are holes all over used during manufacturing. So the holes at some time must be used for something. So take a break and don't even start on me! I only ask a question.
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Old 08-18-2010, 08:33 PM   #41
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Can I chime in?

ok jcthorne, is totally correct in his thinking. There is no increased stress, or load that could break anything. The sway bar is a torsional device, ie, it is meant to twist.
in the stock location, the links will, from full compression to full extension make the bar twist more than using the second set of holes, closer to the twist center.
(pull out your old geometry books folks) what is happening here is this.
Using the holes closer to the axle, will create less leverage, therfore require more effort on the part of the coach to make the bar twist. the bar will twist less from one extreme to the other. what I mean by one extreme the the other is, one wheel fully compressed, and one fully extended. that is what a sway bar is trying to prevent.
Rock on, or should I say rock less JC, this is my next mod, thanks. Kerry
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Old 08-27-2010, 03:19 PM   #42
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this is from a racing web site.:
Sway bar or ARB Arm Length: Changing the arm length fine‐tunes the stiffness of the sway bar. A shorter arm will enhance the sway barís effect on cornering. This increases the barís effective stiffness by reducing the length of the lever‐arm through which the wheel acts on the bar. A longer arm will lessen the sway barís effects. Sometimes this adjustment is indicated directly as soft, medium, and stiff (or firm), and sometimes it is indicated by a number adjustment. When a number is used, higher values are stiffer. On many race cars this is the only anti-roll bar adjustment, and a generic soft, medium, stiff ARB adjustment normally indicates that the stiffness adjustment is being made by changing the length of the ARB arms or where the ARB mounts attach to the ARB (thus changing the effective length).
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