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Old 04-01-2019, 10:57 PM   #5587
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Well I went back and reviewed some early posts and “borrowed” this pic. Ive only read the first few thousands posts here, but as I recall, the argument was that if there is still some angle between the link and bar on the high side when one side is jacked up until the axle is hanging on the shock, then there is still torsion occurring on the sway bar so its a non-issue. I don't know if the rig is jacked up or “normal” in this pic, but I suspect this is with all wheels on the ground. If so, there isn't much room left for upward travel and if its maxing out then you are limiting sway by having solid link between the frame and axle.

Either way it seems to me more focus should be on the side thats lifting (tension) than the side thats being forced down (compression), because this is the side that sway from wind or passing big rigs and busses comes from - the side being lifted. So it seems like this is where you’d want to ensure as much travel as possible, not limit it. Just my idle observation, while waiting for this thing to hit 400 pages...
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Old 04-01-2019, 11:14 PM   #5588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.Wold View Post

The point of the factory geometry (for me) was to ensure the bar ends have enough travel on both the high and low sides when stressed. When the side under compression is pressed down, the side under tension has to be able to rise sufficiently to allow for the bar to twist. It seems to me that if the bar is positioned such that both ends are too high above level, you loose travel on the high side and the bar may just be pulling on the mount on the axle. Much like just having a solid travel limiter (like bolting on a length of chain) without benefitting from the torsion action of the sway bar. You’d have to jack up one side to confirm this, but it seems to me that as soon as the high side link is straight in line with the end of the sway bar, its just pulling on the axle, limiting sway, but again, not tensioning the bar.

So thats my argument for having the bar more or less level, which admittedly is probably pretty close to 90 degrees. It seems like most of the focus here is on the compression side, but the tension side is contributing (ideally) 50% of the sway limiting force and thus ride control and the bar needs travel on both ends in opposite directions to accomplish this. From my perspective anyway....
Did you measure how much travel you have with the standard links before going through the trouble of lengthening them? This seems to be the problem with a lot of the reasoning around changing the links, people make assumptions but don’t actually measure or test, they just jump to conclusions and make changes when nothing is wrong with what they had.

I did measure and I have 3 1/2” of down travel with CHF and 3 1/2” of up travel to bump stop. Is the CHF limiting down travel? Maybe it’s close shocks might be bottoming at that extension, but it’s equal to my up travel so if it’s twisting that far I am hitting bumps stops on the ther side. I do plan to confirm this by undoing the links and lifting axle off the ground and measuring again, maybe this weekend mainly because I am curious at this point.

The link hitting 180 is actually at max sway control, the axle won’t articulate any further, you probably want this if your leaning 3 1/2 inches to the side. The whole point of the CHF is to reduce roll the more the bar twists the more roll you have. At 3 “ the sway bar is resisting At least 3750 lbs of force with normal links and CHF but only 3000 with extended links. Your less likely to hit the limit with standard links due to the increased stiffness.

BTW that pics looks like my MH, I have another somewhere with axle off the ground and tape measure showing how far it will drop. The sway bar actually makes contact with leaf before the links hit a full 180. There are no marking on bar or leaf to denote this ever is occurring while driving, it lightly rests that way when jacking front axle off the ground.

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Old 04-01-2019, 11:32 PM   #5589
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Ok, now Ill have to go out and jack it up and take a pic .

I didn't measure anything - just looked at several years (literally) of CHF posts here which seemed sufficient (the measuring and testing has been pretty much done) and made the decision to use the Helwig links.

I think you’re right (about all of it actually) that probably is your rig. It was on page three.... i like the idea of jacking it up to see what the limits are - its just been rain, rain, rain here so not real motivated to go out and work on it.

It also occurred to me that I could use my adjustable links to place the bar somewhere between stock geometry and the upper limits of the CHF if there is a benefit to that, since it has a couple inches of adjustment now.
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Old 04-01-2019, 11:44 PM   #5590
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It also occurred to me that I could use my adjustable links to place the bar somewhere between stock geometry and the upper limits of the CHF if there is a benefit to that, since it has a couple inches of adjustment now.
Yes that is a nice benefit nothing wrong with more adjustability, sway bar adjustment is all personal preference. I just don’t want people to ge scared away from doing the CHF and think they need to make something free into something that cost money or fabrication to do “right”.

The standard CHF was a surprisingly good upgrade for me, so was adjusting my toe, both completely free and easy.
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Old 04-02-2019, 08:53 AM   #5591
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Here's answers to two questions. The rear CHF can be done on the rear with out extending any links unless there's interference with the differential and the SB. The interference happens very seldom.

Very, very few have had any issues with front or rear links breaking or bending. It has happened so seldom I'd say less than 2 or 3. I don't recall any Z-brackets having any thing to do with failures. The Z-brackets can only be re-used if hole spacing is 3".

I've done the CHF on easily 30 or more different rigs. There's always a difference in link positions and I'm not sure it's necessary to adjust lengths so they fit in easily. Even a slight difference in level will cause the sides to be different and appear to need different lengths. In fact it was discussed at one time using the adjustable plates to change only 1 side at a time which will give you double the SWAY adjustment positions.

I don't recall if anybody did it but there was a discussion.
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Old 04-05-2019, 07:27 PM   #5592
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CHF Update 2019 Thor 32.1

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Photo uploaded

Crawled under the coach today to apply the fix. Couldn't do it, the Z bracket & bolt are one piece on my rig. So I couldn't swap it.


Disappointed
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Old 04-05-2019, 09:57 PM   #5593
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jb,

We have heard that before on the 2018 units but it can still be done. I've not actually seen what they did so I'm commenting from another owners comments.

I believe he said that the bolt going through the bracket was serrated. What does that mean?? The bolt just under the nut had grooves cut into it and there were grooves inside the bracket. The bolt is kind of pressed into the bracket but it can be pressed out and then it would just work like a nut and bolt.

It may not be necessary to remove the bolt from the bracket but it may be necessary to forcefully remove the Z-bracket and bolt from the SB then reversed their positions so the link can be moved to the inner hole (CHF).

Why did they make the change? Probably so owners wouldn't do the CHF. That said why would they do it since nobody is having any issues with the need for the Z-brackets. They were added to provide more support. None of them were coming off. We never had any on the bottom fronts from the beginning. And most didn't.
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Old 04-05-2019, 10:59 PM   #5594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbwilli1 View Post
Crawled under the coach today to apply the fix. Couldn't do it, the Z bracket & bolt are one piece on my rig. So I couldn't swap it.Disappointed
Post a pic - id be interested to see what they did for later models, but as has been well established, you don't need the z-brackets and its questionable whether they actually distribute much, if any load anyway; earlier models don't have them at all. My 2010 has them in the frame ends of the links only.
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Old 04-06-2019, 05:52 AM   #5595
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jb,

We have heard that before on the 2018 units but it can still be done. I've not actually seen what they did so I'm commenting from another owners comments.

I believe he said that the bolt going through the bracket was serrated. What does that mean?? The bolt just under the nut had grooves cut into it and there were grooves inside the bracket. The bolt is kind of pressed into the bracket but it can be pressed out and then it would just work like a nut and bolt.

It may not be necessary to remove the bolt from the bracket but it may be necessary to forcefully remove the Z-bracket and bolt from the SB then reversed their positions so the link can be moved to the inner hole (CHF).

Why did they make the change? Probably so owners wouldn't do the CHF. That said why would they do it since nobody is having any issues with the need for the Z-brackets. They were added to provide more support. None of them were coming off. We never had any on the bottom fronts from the beginning. And most didn't.
Mine had the brackets on the rear but not the front. My chassis is a '17.

I've slept a few times since doing mine, but I do remember that the bolts were knurled for a few millimeters under the head and when tightened they resulted in sort of a press fit. I don't remember exactly what I did, but I'm sure it involved prying on then or beating on them.
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Old 04-06-2019, 08:32 AM   #5596
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Mine had the brackets on the rear but not the front. My chassis is a '17.

I've slept a few times since doing mine, but I do remember that the bolts were knurled for a few millimeters under the head and when tightened they resulted in sort of a press fit. I don't remember exactly what I did, but I'm sure it involved prying on then or beating on them.
sure wish they did that to the bolts that hold the Sb brackets in place!
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Old 04-06-2019, 12:08 PM   #5597
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbwilli1 View Post
Crawled under the coach today to apply the fix. Couldn't do it, the Z bracket & bolt are one piece on my rig. So I couldn't swap it.


Disappointed
I think mine were as you described on my 2018 16k chassis too. Not an issue. The bolt doesn't need to separate from the bracket. Just think of it as a big funny shaped washer. Pull it out and flip it around.

I experienced some rough riding up front on my short 26' rv after the chf, so after some re-reading, decided to extend the front links to 13.5". The roughness went away, but as recent posts with CAD models suggest, I also lost some of the sway control.
I'm going to buy some stock links and put them back on...in the chf position of course.
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Old 04-06-2019, 07:50 PM   #5598
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Close up

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.Wold View Post
Post a pic - id be interested to see what they did for later models, but as has been well established, you don't need the z-brackets and its questionable whether they actually distribute much, if any load anyway; earlier models don't have them at all. My 2010 has them in the frame ends of the links only.

Close up.


I think when it quit raining, I'll get back under there & give it a try.



What scares me is getting the bolt & hole lined up. The angle of my bar is so steep I can't get a good bite to put a jack under, without it slipping off.



I finally added a brick under one side of the bottle jack so it would match the angle.


Now that I look at again, I wouldn't need to remove the Z bracket, the bolt should spin inside the bushing.


QUESTION should the rear tires be off the ground or in normal contact?
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Old 04-06-2019, 09:27 PM   #5599
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The tires should be on the ground and there's no need for a bottle on any other kind of jack. Remove the nuts from both bolts on the bracket. Rotate the bracket 180º so the tie bar end and wider end of the bracket line up with the rear hole on the sway bar. On mine I had to loosen the top end of the tie bar in order to pivot it. Apply some blue thread lock, reinstall the nuts, torque to 65-66 ft/lb. Done.
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Old 04-06-2019, 10:26 PM   #5600
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This is a pretty interesting thread and plenty long and confusing. I'm still not sure what CHF is but I don't think it really matters. The strength (amount of anti sway) in a sway bar is strictly a function of it's diameter, nothing else matters. They should always be mounted in a street vehicle in a neutral position, that is where the ends are in the same position relative to each other, forgetting for a moment about the links on the end. If they are not mounted in a neutral position you are preloading it which is essentially putting a bigger spring in one side of the vehicle and a smaller spring in the other side. Having said that on a used vehicle the springs may be weaker on on side than the other or maybe the vehicle is not perfectly level so they ends may not line up perfectly but they also shouldn't be of much. A very little jacking on one side or the other should make things line up.



As to moving the links (pins) from one hole to the other hole I don't think this is a good idea. I've worked on race cars for a goodly number of years and the sway bar arms are always at nearly 90 deg. to the links. Did moving the links do something to the chassis, I'm sure it did but I'm also just as sure that it is not a good thing and that something is binding up somewhere that make the sway bar "feel" stronger. It may feel that way, but it ain't right.


As to the "z" bracket on the rear bar, that is there to put the mounting bolt in double shear, where both ends of a bolt are supported, which is much stronger than single shear where only one end of the bolt is supported.

So what's the solution to the problem? That's easy, a larger diameter sway bar. This will not affect ride at all as the sway bar only comes into play when the wheels are at different heights. For instance if you hit a speed bump straight on the sway bar will do nothing, if your coach hits a speed bump on one side the sway bar will try and push that side down and the other side up which is what reduces the sway. I'm sure there are those that will disagree with me, that's your privilege but I think you should go do some research and then tell me why I'm wrong. I'm pretty sure that the guys that designed the sway bars you are modifying have forgotten more about vehicle suspensions that you and I have ever learned. I've learned to trust their judgement.
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