Don't Look Now V10 Owners

[DriVer]

When I attended the 2009 RVIA Exposition, I was told that Ford was enabling the V10 and other engines to begin burning LP fuel.

Here's the latest News along those lines ....

The 18th Annual STN EXPO Trade Show started off with a bang Tuesday as Blue Bird was joined by partners Ford and ROUSH CleanTech to display the latest Type C conventional Vision school bus powered by propane autogas and a bigger, faster 6.8L V-10 engine....

the article is continued here ..... New Blue Bird School Bus Powered by Propane .... By: RV Business

I understand that the valve seats were hardened to accommodate the LP and a number of fuel issues I'm sure were enabled however for the most part the engine remains pretty much the same as it is.

This is one way to reduce emissions and it maybe the direction that the fleet is heading.

Dan Snyder from FoMoCo is attending the National Rally and I'm sure he will be able to speak about LPG fuels for Fords.

[RustyJC]

Jack Roush has been retrofitting Ford trucks to burn propane for years. See HERE.

Knowing his close connections with Ford, I'm sure his conversions weren't done in a vacuum.

Rusty

[DriVer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustyJC Jack Roush has been retrofitting Ford trucks to burn propane for years. See HERE.

Rusty, Point is that FoMoCo is either manufacturing engines out of the plant or thinking about it to burn LP. It would appear that like the Powerstroke Diesel they are assuming more of a lead role in presenting the technology to a more broad spectrum of customers.

No ???

I also heard comments from Ford that RVs can use LP because there are LP sources at most campgrounds.

[RustyJC]

Mike, my point was that I doubt they're reinventing the wheel. Rather, I strongly suspect that they're taking Roush's LPG technology and integrating it into their broader product line. Very similar to the partnership Cummins has with Westport to gasify existing engines - see HERE.

Rusty

[pkunk1]

Ford has been building & selling propane/gasoline duel fuel pickups for years.

[DriVer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkunk1 Ford has been building & selling propane/gasoline duel fuel pickups for years.

That's right and so has every other major manufacturer in the country .... Other than England or Europe where many RV'ers travel in LP fueled vehicles, are we willing to make that switch here in the US with our motorhomes?

Are LPG fueled recreational vehicles the wave of the not too distant future?

The purpose of this post is not so much to laud Ford and others for fueling pickup trucks, school buses and cars but fueling our Class 6 motorhomes. I have already seen a ready to roll Class C at the exposition in the Ford display so in my opinion - that's a done deal.

What's your opinion? Are you on-board with buying your next Class A motorhome being primarily fueled by LPG ?

[LVJ58]

Mike, from what I understand in the few conversations I've had with folks using LP fueled vehicles, is that LP burns cleaner, increasing oil change intervals.

However, in that it produces less BTU than gasoline there's a reduction in power and lower fuel mpg, is that fact or fiction?

Thanks, Jim

[pkmesser]

Diesel, 135,000 btu/gal; gasoline, 125,000 btu gal.; propane 92,400 btu /gal. Now this doesn't mean that of and in itself that propane engines will have less power, but it does mean lower mpg.
Historically, propane engines were less power also, but probably because they were converted gasoline engines, not because of the fuel itself. You won't overcome the lower energy content with a different design though. It may be possable to get the power up, but they will burn more fuel.

Now on a weight basis, propane looks pretty good, diesel and gasoline are right at 8 lbs/gallon, propane is approx. 4 lbs/gal. You would need a bigger tank, but the tank has to be a high pressure tank, which with currently utilized technology is higher weight.

[DriVer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LVJ58 However, in that it produces less BTU than gasoline there's a reduction in power and lower fuel mpg, is that fact or fiction?

Jim, Thanks for taking the time to join the discussion. Now anyone here can step on me if I am wrong about this but I have not heard a lot of good things about LP fueled generators. They work OK but they use up a lot of fuel.

Some diesel owners I understand have gen sets that run on LP as the entry level unit with an option for diesel gen. I have not heard of any LP gens on gas powered motorhomes. I guess the price difference it not that great. When I'm heating the rig with LP and making hot water I run through what I might think was a lot of LP but since I don't use a lot normally I might be complaining about nothing.

I'm thinking - Hey this thing is a V10 and it's going to be very hungry as opposed to a generator set. I wonder how big of an LP tank one would have to run if it were the primary source of fuel for a V10?

Price here for LP is $2.95 per gallon.

[pkmesser]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DriVer . I'm thinking - Hey this thing is a V10 and it's going to be very hungry as opposed to a generator set. I wonder how big of an LP tank one would have to run if it were the primary source of fuel for a V10? Price here for LP is $2.95 per gallon.

My bulk tank was filled yesterday at $2.87/gallon.
We had a neighbor many years ago when we bought this property that worked for one of the propane distributers. He had a (then) small chevelle that was totally on propane, and his pickup (1/2 ton chevy) was duel fuel. He said he burn't about 15% more propane, than gasoline, in the pickup. And thought about the same on the car, he had it a few years before the propane conversion.
AS I pointed out in my previous post, the weight of the propane incl. tank, may be less than a simular range gasoline tank. But an additional issue there is the fitting of it. For pressure reasons, the cylinder shape is the most economical, you also have the 80% max fill requirement. So the tank is actually 125% of usable capacity. Just gotta find a place to put it. I would think in a MH, a minimum tank size that's dedicated for engine fuel would be 100 gal. In reality, you would use only one tank, for chassis engine, generator, and house propane, so it would be bigger yet.
Another overall issue, is overall volume available. We are finding a lot of Nat. gas. Propane can be a component of nat. gas that is removed, as it is higher value. But, if there is an overall switch to propane, will there be enough to go around? I don't know. CNG is lower yet in energy content, but anything that is engineered to help an engine run on propane, would probably apply to CNG also. Nat. gas in generally in the range of 1100-1140 btu/std cu ft*. (I don't know how much it is compressed, to estimate the volume of std cu ft in a gallon.)
* The reason for the range, is that natural gas is primarily methane, with small amounts of propane and butane left in it. So the heating value varies based on the amount of propane and butane. As I remember, pure methane is about 1080 btu/std cu ft.

[pkunk1]

I've run propane powered pickups for over 35 years (from when it was $.25 a gal) and can attest to the milage drop. The system can be adjusted for an infinate range between economy & power. Today it is not really economical to run propane to a new user as the cost of conversion is high. We used to run the school busses here on propane and they had 2 long narrow tanks on either side of the frame totaling about 150 gals.
In a MH conversion, you would loose compartments as you need to keep the dual fuel capability. Propane motor fuel is not available just anywhere and dealers are only open 8-5. Sometimes even then the only authorized dispenser is out making deliveries.
The clean burn is a major plus...my oil after a year of driving looks like it just came out of the can and that on an engine with 385,000 miles.

[jmtandem]

My understanding is that gas is six pounds per gallon and diesel about seven. Water is eight point three. Propane will get less miles per gallon and if it does not cost proportionally less probably is not a better deal then diesel taking into consideration longevity and the willingness of the engine to work hard, a trait of diesels.

[gasser 38]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DriVer That's right and so has every other major manufacturer in the country .... Other than England or Europe where many RV'ers travel in LP fueled vehicles, are we willing to make that switch here in the US with our motorhomes? Are LPG fueled recreational vehicles the wave of the not too distant future? The purpose of this post is not so much to laud Ford and others for fueling pickup trucks, school buses and cars but fueling our Class 6 motorhomes. I have already seen a ready to roll Class C at the exposition in the Ford display so in my opinion - that's a done deal. What's your opinion? Are you on-board with buying your next Class A motorhome being primarily fueled by LPG ?

Most os the LP units or for that matter CNG as well are used by large fleets or Muni or Government agencies that install their own pumps. The biggest issue with this is infrastructure there are not a lot of places to buy LPG and even less for CNG The dual fuel systems tend to get filled with gas and neve see the alt fuel to the point that switch over handles are frozen. The City of NY had loads of these in the 80,s and 90,s.

[KC1BUD]

No one mentions cost per gallon compared to gas or diesel. I believe it is more per gallon than diesel. Couple that with fewer miles per gallon; How many of us RV-ers especially those of us on a fixed income are willing to spend on the cost of conversion then add in the cost per gallon? Is it really worth it?