Driving with a V10 help.

[SuperGewl]

Originally Posted by wogden

I did a profile when I signed on and updated it with a pic this morning from Avila Bay in CA. Great place to park!

OK, my bad. Fill out your Signature

[wogden]

Ha! Forgot about that signature. Fixed it this morning.

[wogden]

Bought the 5star tune package from Mike and it arrived out here in CA 2 days later. Took me about 15 minutes to run the program. Took the RV out and ran up to Petaluma and Santa Rosa for a couple of days and can absolutely say that the V10 is running superbly! I cannot believe the difference. Rolls over the hills now with a simple kickdown and rpm's run at around 2600. I am very pleased. It performs like a different vehicle!
Highly recommend this to all.

[TeJay]

Today we just completed about 600 miles in our new WBGO Vista Class A with the bigger V-10. We only have about 2600 miles on the unit and this is our first long trip.

We drove today from MI down to the St. Louis area and I only use cruise when the road is fairly level. When hitting an incline I watch the speed and as soon as I think it's going to downshift to try and keep me at the 62-64 MPH speed I touch the brake and turn off the cruise. If it does downshift it will hit just over 3,000 RPM and I don't like it at all. I rarely run much above 2,250 RPM. With the larger engine I just cruise up the hills at around the 2,250 - 2,750 RPM. I can climb most moderate hill in those RPM ranges. Yes I realize climbing mountains out west would be a different story. There's no sense in staying in cruise and having the engine try to keep you at 62-64 MPH when it just can't unless it's racing like crazy and drinking fuel.

We all know RPM's are what lowers fuel mileage. You want to keep your speed up but only to a point. Today we hit our first strong head winds. At one point I was at 62MPH and running at 2,500 RPM's. With no head wind or a tail wind to keep that speed I might only be running around 1,800 to 2,000 RPM's. On a good day with little or no head wind I usually cruise just around 2,000 RPM's.

I liked what you reported with the 5-Start Tune. I'm still a little afraid of it with a new coach but who knows. I also look at it this way. If it is as good as has been reported why won't Ford use it from the factory??? Will it destroy the emission ratings?? Will it lean the fuel out to much and cause excessive heat?? I'm still thinking that there's something wrong and that's why they won't install it at the factory.

TeJay

[sswilson]

I have a 2000 Winnebago Class A with the v10. I recently purchased the 5 Star Tune but have not have an opportunity to install. I have driven the mountains from BC to Arizona pulling a 97 Ford F150 weighing approx 4800 Lbs. I found it best to get out of cruise in the hills and used the OD button to avoid some of the large RPM changes. I found that I was able to control much easier but found I should not try and win a race over the mountain. Simple physics tells me that the MH is gonna be working quite a bit harder as the incline increases. I actually preferred some of the steeper short hills than the loooooong hill between Barstow and Vegas (16 miles?) Long story short, I wasn't really disappointed with the stock performance, but I feel with all the good things I've heard about 5 Star with not seeing one negative, I will see if I can improve the performance. The package they send stores your stock program and you can reinstall if needed. I have driven both gas and diesel trucks during my working years and no matter which you drive in the mountains, there will be a change in performance. (some more than others)

[frankdamp]

The V-10 is a mush more modern, higher-revving engine than the old 460 lunkers. RPMs around 4000 or even higher aren't a problem. Whatever the engine and transmission computers figure is OK, don't worry about it. If they're wrong, FoMoCo will have a very big warranty problem.

I'm more accustomed to motorcycle engines running at 12,000 rpm at 70 mph, so 4000 for a few miles on a modern OHC engine like the V-10 doesn't give me any heartburn. Climbing Washington Pass last summer from Winthrop, the engine was running between 3800 and 4900 most of the way to the top. Temperature stayed in the middle of the gauge, as did oil pressure. I didn't see any signs of distress, but the noise was a bit annoying.

Bottom line - Ford designed the engine to rev significantly higher than the old pushrod 460 and get way better gas mileage. Folks familiar with the older engines tend to freak out when the tach gets above 3500. The V-10 can run at 5000 rpm without breathing very hard.

Our old '85 26' Class C with the 460 (carb) got about 6 mpg at sea level and less than 5 mpg above 2000'. The 32' '02 Class A we have now gets a consistent 7.8 mpg regardless of altitude. No prizes for guessing which we prefer!

[TeJay]

Frank,
Thanks for the information on the high revving of the V-10. Every time that engine would shift down and get the RPM's up over 3,000 I would cringe. I don't like to abuse my equipment so I always try to keep the R's down. I do accept your info. I don't know your background but if you say it's OK then that's good for me.
Maybe you can shed some like on this revving question. Twice on the way home while going through MO on I-44 as I crested over some steep hills leaving St. Louis the tranny shifted into a lower gear and the RPM's went to between 4,000 & 5,000 RPM's. I know it's shifting down to use the engine as a brake but I didn't like it at all. I actually couldn't get the tranny to shift out of that gear until I got below 50 MPH. Remember I'm on an expressway with traffic all around me and suddenly I'm shifting down and slowing to between 45 and 50 MPH.

I was not on cruise because I usually don't keep it on cruise unless I'm on the straight and level. The second time it happened I tried to determine what I might have done to get it to down shift but came up with nothing.

I wonder if the 5 Star Tune would eliminate this problem??? I'm still not sure about that MOD.

I'd appreciate any input you might have.

Thanks,
TeJay

[cucamelsmd15]

Originally Posted by TeJay

I liked what you reported with the 5-Start Tune. I'm still a little afraid of it with a new coach but who knows. I also look at it this way. If it is as good as has been reported why won't Ford use it from the factory??? Will it destroy the emission ratings?? Will it lean the fuel out to much and cause excessive heat?? I'm still thinking that there's something wrong and that's why they won't install it at the factory.

TeJay

Because Furd develops and installs a 75% tune that works on 100% of vehicles. Meaning, their tunes for things like timing, fuel, shift pressures and schedules are conservative. Well, except for fuel, because the EPA and emissions have really screwed the pooch on open loop/closed loop tuning and what is "required" for emissions purposes. I have seen this graph repeated over and over, its a common industry trend now.


Guess what? Engines dont really like being run that lean, and it leads to lots bad things in high performance motors. Its the reason Subaru has been replacing some of their turbo motors for cracked ringlands since 2007, because turbo motors that pump cylinders full of hot air really dont being like run lean.

Theres more I can go into if youre interested, but the bottom line is the manufacturer tunes to get 75% out of their equipment.

Originally Posted by TeJay

Maybe you can shed some like on this revving question. Twice on the way home while going through MO on I-44 as I crested over some steep hills leaving St. Louis the tranny shifted into a lower gear and the RPM's went to between 4,000 & 5,000 RPM's. I know it's shifting down to use the engine as a brake but I didn't like it at all. I actually couldn't get the tranny to shift out of that gear until I got below 50 MPH. Remember I'm on an expressway with traffic all around me and suddenly I'm shifting down and slowing to between 45 and 50 MPH.


Thanks,
TeJay

Did you have it in Tow/Haul? That is characteristic behavior for Tow/Haul, and you can initiate the downshift by a double tap of the brakes. I know on our F150 and the MH, throttle application will cause it to upshift to the next gear (usually 5th in the truck or 4th in the MH) and you can go about your business after that.

Personally, I dont mind turning the RPM, especially downhill. Its not using any fuel. Its pumping air, which helps cool the motor, and can be beneficial after a long climb. The V10 has a reputation of being a "spin it to win it" motor as well as previously mentioned.

[jamesrxx951]

I have a hard time believing that graph. The reason I say this is because I have monitored the fuel mixture on WOT. During normal cruise the most Ford (non UEGO) sensors will switch from .4-.7V. This is trying to keep the proper air/fuel ratio. Under WOT, the sensors will read a steady .8-.9V. This indicates a slightly richer mixture. If the vehicle is equipped with a catalyst sensor, they will increase slightly in voltage also. However normally aspirated gas engines can run closer to the leaner mixture than a forced inducted motor. Force induction must be ran richer at WOT than a N/A engine.

[tderonne]

Originally Posted by jamesrxx951

I have a hard time believing that graph.

Given that the stock speed limiter is 75 MPH, the graph is not 100% accurate.
The stock calibration will go open loop at WOT, like James says, it's as easy as watching the data (Scan Guage even has a LOOP parameter). It goes open loop based on lots of inputs, and a very sophisticated exhaust temperature model. Yes, it will stay closed loop at WOT for some time, but not long. Certainly not as long as that graph shows.

[cucamelsmd15]

Originally Posted by jamesrxx951

I have a hard time believing that graph. The reason I say this is because I have monitored the fuel mixture on WOT. During normal cruise the most Ford (non UEGO) sensors will switch from .4-.7V. This is trying to keep the proper air/fuel ratio. Under WOT, the sensors will read a steady .8-.9V. This indicates a slightly richer mixture. If the vehicle is equipped with a catalyst sensor, they will increase slightly in voltage also. However normally aspirated gas engines can run closer to the leaner mixture than a forced inducted motor. Force induction must be ran richer at WOT than a N/A engine.

I dont know why this is so hard to believe. Heres the same graph from a 2009 F150:


AFR in the 14 range until 4500rpm on a motor that has a stock 5200 rpm redline.

Originally Posted by tderonne

Given that the stock speed limiter is 75 MPH, the graph is not 100% accurate.
The stock calibration will go open loop at WOT, like James says, it's as easy as watching the data (Scan Guage even has a LOOP parameter). It goes open loop based on lots of inputs, and a very sophisticated exhaust temperature model. Yes, it will stay closed loop at WOT for some time, but not long. Certainly not as long as that graph shows.

As previously posted, the F150 behaves in the same manner, staying in closed loop until almost redline. Ive seen the data, I have the datalogs. With my SCT on the truck, the closed loop delay overrides all other inputs, and thats not just specific to Ford. The idea behind constant closed loop was to help fuel efficiency and emissions. The real expense of closed loop delays are poor tip in, hesitation, lack of power, detonation etc etc.

I digress, the original question was does the 5 star tune lean it out? Nope. Hard to get any leaner than stoich. Does it effect the emissions? Maybe. My experience on a dyno with a sniffer says that is a mixed bag. Why doesnt Furd use it from the factory? Two reasons: conservative tuning and the EPA.