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Old 03-10-2011, 11:12 AM   #1
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Engine 460ford efi cuts out on very hot days

Engine cuts out on very hot days
I have a 1992 24ft Minnie motor home E350 chassis (approx 45000 miles) with Ford 460v8 EFI that stops running after driving in very hot weather with air on and at speed of 50 to 65 usually on major highways,in traffic and always at an inopportune time. So far it will start up only after cooling off for about half an hour but this should not happen.
Doesn't always happen,but is scary trying to pull over in major traffic. Would like to hear a fix for this problem. Have taken it to mechanics, they said they cant fix an intermitent problem. This is unacceptable.
HELP!-HELP! bigred726@verizon.net or
856-547-0453
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Old 03-10-2011, 02:33 PM   #2
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This sounds like the classic fuel pump problem.

It could be something else but from what you describe it sure sounds like a dying fuel pump. When they get hot they can't generate enough pressure. Let it sit and cool off - or better yet put in more fuel (which is nice and cool) and it fires right up and runs good until it gets hot again.

Unfortunately, the pump is inside the gas tank so the tank must be emptied and lowered from the frame. A new pump from Ford is something like $350 - PLUS labor.

Best of luck to you!
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Old 03-11-2011, 10:33 AM   #3
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Nick: Thanks for your suggestion, but what bothers me is that this has been happening for over the last 5 years . Each time took to mechanic and was told nothing wrong. If it was a fuel pump, shouldn't it get worse and finally quit working?? .NOT LOOKING FORWARD TO THIS! Just talked to a friend who had similar problem he had fuel pump replaced and was told to keep at least 1/2 tank of gas inh tank during hot weather.
I thought that since it gets so hot in the engine compartment that it may be effecting the electronics, or fuel system, vapor lock?? Would like to hear more suggestions, before I install some kind installing thermostat controlled fan under hood or a new fuel pump.
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:50 PM   #4
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I guess I would start with a fuel filter change then I would look at gas line routing as it really sounds more like vapor lock then a pump supply problem. The tank mounted fuel pump will lessen the chance for vapor lock, but on a very hot day, a/c running plus running along at the 55-65 mph range puts a lot of heat into the exhaust - and a 460 - it's a big engine. You may need shrouds to deflect heat from the almost glowing hot catalytic converter that should already have one - but they do rust and 'disappear'. Then there is that 2.5 - 3 inch exhaust pipe from those heavy cast iron manifolds that have a great deal of heat retained. Then you can get into modern day devices like vapor canisters and purge solenoids and O2 sensors and fuel pressure regulators - to mention a few, any of which can cause grief when they get hot.
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Old 03-11-2011, 02:40 PM   #5
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Hi Bigred,

Like I said, it could be something besides the fuel pump and the Class C, van chassis Fords are notorious for engine compartment heat and that certainly can be causing some other issue.

Simplest way to eliminate the fuel pump as a problem is run it with a pressure gauge hooked up to the injector line (there is a port on the fuel rail just for diagnostics like this) and take it out, run it hard and get it hot. Fuel pressure should be close to 40 PSI under load. If is starts dropping down close to 30, it will start running poorly and you have a weak pump.

Obviously, replace the fuel filter first if you have not sone so very recently.

Part of the reason I keep focusing on the pump is that it has been an issue for ALL EFI 460 motorhomes. Search this and other RV forums to see how common this is.
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Old 03-11-2011, 03:14 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred726 View Post
Engine cuts out on very hot days
I have a 1992 24ft Minnie motor home E350 chassis (approx 45000 miles) with Ford 460v8 EFI that stops running after driving in very hot weather with air on and at speed of 50 to 65 usually on major highways,in traffic and always at an inopportune time. So far it will start up only after cooling off for about half an hour
I believe that your symptoms also match TFI ignition module failure.
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Old 03-11-2011, 03:24 PM   #7
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That unit may have two fuel pumps, My unit is and 1989 with the 460 EFI. I have a low pressure pump in the tank and a high pressure pump on the frame rail. Not sure what year they switch to just the single high pressure in the tank. Keep us posted when you figure it out.
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Old 03-11-2011, 10:24 PM   #8
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X2 on the fuel pump. Classic failure. I cut an access hole in the floor just above the fuel pump, that allows me easy access to change / service the pump. I can change it in about 30 minutes now, without dropping the tank.
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Old 03-12-2011, 02:09 PM   #9
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X3 on the fuel Pump!!
Its not a matter if it will fail but WHEN!!!
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Old 03-12-2011, 02:30 PM   #10
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Just mo, but vapor lock on later fuel injection systems is unusual since EFI is a highly pressurized system which just doesn't usually vaporlock, unlike a carburetor system (5-7 PSI) which can easily vapor lock under hot conditions. Can you pull codes on your unit? Your unit will have an electronic control unit (ECU, or "black box") that runs the EFI and emission systems. Even on many basic systems with throttle body EFI, one can sometimes pull codes themselves by turning the key on/off 3 or 4 times (not starting the vehicle) and then watching the check engine light. IF you can do that on your m/h, you can decode the number of blinks of the c/e light and that may point you to a problem. If you get the c/e light blinking, do a google search for trouble codes....you'll find them. Problem is that earlier EFI systems usually don't set codes for a clogged filter or fading fuel pump. And trouble codes on those earlier systems are stored in the ECU for only so many start-up/shut down cycles...and then they are gone. And if you unhook your chassis batteries, the codes are erased. Could be that is why the techs could not locate a problem....and intermittents are the worst. You will probably have to duplicate the situation for you to even see if your unit will flash codes....sigh.

As others have suggested, I would focus first on fuel filter and/or pump, especially with that mileage. Has the filter ever been changed? With the vehicle running and HOT, listen to the in-tank pump. If it seems really noisy with a high pitched whine that isn't there with the vehicle running and at normal operating temperature, that will tell you that you are on the right track. Fuel pumps on earlier EFI systems from the 80's and early 90's really are notorious for leaking internally when hot, especially 460's. In addition, EFI systems DO NOT like weak fuel pressure OR weak batteries. Some ECU's will shut down when fuel pressure and battery charge fall below certain default levels. Later EFI systems make these kinds of problems MUCH easier to solve due to better electronics and fault code detection. By the way, unlike early ones, later year ECU's such as is on your unit rarely fail. When the early versions failed, EVERYTHING stopped....and I mean everything. No hope. The vehicle would not re-start when cooled off. Now, ECU's are not usually the culprit for intermittent problems. Your problem is likely somewhere else. Also, I have known of others like Jagtech that have replaced such a fuel pump the same way....sure is a lot easier than draining fuel, dropping tanks, etc.

Suggest you do a google search for your problem....there is a gold mine of info out there. No sense in re-inventing the wheel. Also, see if you can pull "codes" yourself on your unit. Whaterver you find, please let us know....appreciate it.
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Old 03-12-2011, 05:02 PM   #11
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I take it you are saying the engine is turning off and not just dropping power.
It does sound electrical and it would be either the PIP sensor or the ICM.
You need to get a paper clip and short the STI wire to the SIG RTN pin of the self-test plug.
Get behind the wheel with a paper and pen.
Turn on the key and count the groups of flashes.
Then post them back and we will help you find out what is wrong with it.
The codes will also tell you if it is a fuel problem.

For more information on the self-test goto this link:
Ford Fuel Injection How To Run a Self-Test

If you have any problems with the test just post back and I will post photos, diagrams, locations and so on.
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Old 03-20-2011, 05:05 PM   #12
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Well guys I'm back. Puled codes #14 & #67. I checked ford list and came up with #14 is(PIP) profile ignition pickup was erratic. Guess that is the stater in the distributer.???
#67 (PNP) or clutch switch ckt failure. (park neutral fault) I have no Idea what that is unless its the air condition clutch???
Thanks Bill
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Old 03-20-2011, 06:32 PM   #13
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Yes it sounds like the PIP sensor is bad that is mounted on the stator inside the distributor.

Hard to say what to do about it as about 75% of rebuilt distributors have bad PIP sensors in them.
You can try and replace the stator but you have take the distributor all the way apart and that is hard to do without a press.
I know of one guy that got four bad distributors in a row and then replace the stator himself and that fixed his problem.
Also the distributor is not that easy to remove, replace and time with the F53.

The other code just means most of the time that you had the AC switch on when you did the test.
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Old 03-27-2011, 11:51 AM   #14
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Hi gang I'm back. Called around, to replace fuel pump-$1200--to replace electronic pick up--$275--If done cant grantee the problem is fixed..Also was told that it could be vapor locked.Happened on early ford ambulances and they just discontinued the 460 and went to diesel. They told me I have to have the problem happen again and after pulling out of traffic jump out of coach, run to the gas fill and remove cap. If it spits out gasoline or emits a rush of vapor from the tank, its vapor lock. If not that, pull spark plug wire ,ground and try to start engine, if no spark, its the stater.If not that put fuel pressure Gage on the shrader plug on efi rail. if low pressure its the pump. Now really, I am ready to just put a hand grenade under the hood, when the problem occur es again ,pull the pin and run like hell.
Come on now, Can you imagin what it's like to have this thing just shut down at 50-60 mph when you in heavy trafic and you least expect. Can this be real ???? I am completely frustrated. BILL
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