F 53 Ride Help!!!

[Betr2Trvl]

Originally Posted by ST_Bake

Greeting All,

Thought I would share what I have done to improve the ride and handling of my 2016 Tiffin Allegro 32SA with factory installed Sumo Springs (Front/Rear).

Overall I though the MH drove fairly well, but was being pushed around a bit from wind when passing or being passed and noticeable tail wagging. Additionally, the ride was somewhat harsh.

I first installed the Blue Ox Rear Trac Bar (TT2600) which greatly reduced the tail wagging and the negative affects from the wind. Next, I lowered my cold air pressure to 90 psi from 100 psi and performed the CHF on both front and rear. These actions reduced the harness and body swaying. Lastly I installed the Safe-T-Plus (41-230/Blue) yesterday, which tightened up the steering and to me gave a more positive feel of driving with less input on the steering wheel.

The only other item I am considering is the Roadmaster Rear Auxiliary Sway Bar (1139-149), but for now I think it is good. I spoke with the people at Henderson's Lineup and they said the Roadmaster Aux. Sway Bar provides the most benefit for my particular MH. Anybody have any experience with the Roadmaster rear sway bar and feel it is worth it? It's not exactly cheap ($700-900). Currently, I have invested around $1300, but it's just money right...

Regards,

Your post is a great example of how subjective all this is.......

My 31SA is on the same 24k chassis as yours (optional on my 31SA) and with factory installed Sumos. Your coach is 1 ft. longer than mine, all behind the rear axle. From what I have observed from weight sheets, a 32SA is ~500#s heavier, all at the very back of the RV. We also have a Safe T Plus (tan) steering stabilizer.

I weighed about 22,600 last summer fully loaded down, with full fresh water (we seldom carry more than 1/2 a tank) but empty waste tanks. I don't have my weight sheet handy, but I do have a very good f/r weight distribution. My tire pressures are 96 front / 91 rear at about 85 degrees "cold". It's high based in my axle weights, but I prefer to be closer to the 100/100 posted pressures, and given that we tend to drive in greatly varying temps, even in the summer, those pressures can easily deviate by 5#s on colder days, and I'm not going to play with pressures day to day. I did run softer pressures for a while, and it did help a bit with the harshness on abrupt pavement changes, but I just feel better being more to the high side than low since I don't have actual corner weights.

Of all the supposed handling issues, the one thing I can say from our perspective (my wife drives about 30% of the time) is that we get no push / pull from passing big rigs. None, it's completely irrelevant. Never has been an issue. The only time I even get a slight feel a big rig is coming up on me, is if I simply don't see it and I'm a bit more to the left of my lane. But even then, it's just not a factor at all.

So you have ~ 500# a foot further behind the rear axles than I do. So, what's in my rear bays? Over the propane tank and genny, in the pass through is either folding chairs or a surf board, in either case irrelevant weight. In the rear bays, the only thing that weighs more than 10#s is my tool bag. Other than that, there is maybe 50#s of other stuff in the bays and pass through.

My point is, that a lot of weight behind the rear axle can cause the "tail wagging the dog" syndrome. The further the weight is behind the axle, the more pronounced the pendulum effect can be. It's just simple vehicle dynamics..... And if you have a tight grip on the wheel and fight it / white knuckle it, you just exaggerate the problem; relax your hands and arms, it will make a big difference.

On the other hand, a light front axle can really give you funky steering / handling.....

As to side to side sway, again, I feel it's simply not an issue. No need for the CHF or aftermarket sway bars. If you feel like you are falling into the outside front tire in corners, just slow down more before you turn, and it will solve the problem. You're not on a race track, trying to optimize corner entry speed......

I've done moderate to significant suspension modifications to a couple of my cars, which both saw signficant time on a race tracks doing high performance driving events, as well as competitive auto cross, so I get what suspension modifications can do.......

I read the article in Roughing is Smoothly. I'd love to drive my coach, a stock 32SA, and thier modified 32SA back to back........... So why did they tell you a bigger rear bar would help your coach (vs. helping thier cash flow)? Just curious......

Regards

[Stuart W]

Originally Posted by Betr2Trvl

Your post is a great example of how subjective all this is.......

My 31SA is on the same 24k chassis as yours (optional on my 31SA) and with factory installed Sumos. Your coach is 1 ft. longer than mine, all behind the rear axle. From what I have observed from weight sheets, a 32SA is ~500#s heavier, all at the very back of the RV. We also have a Safe T Plus steering stabilizer.

I weighed about 22,600 last summer fully loaded down, with full fresh water too, but empty waste tanks. I don't have my worth sheet handy, but I do have a very good f/ r weight distribution. My tire pressures are 96 front / 91 rear at about 85 degrees "cold". It's high based in my axle weights, but I prefer to be closer to the 100/100 posted pressures, and given that we tend to drive in greatly varying temps, even in the summer, those pressures can easily deviate by 5#s less on colder days, and I'm not going to play with pressures day to day.

Of all the supposed handling issues, the one thing I can say from our perspective (my wife drives about 30% of the time) is that we get no push / pull from passing big rigs. None, it's completely irrelevant. Never has been an issue. The only time I even get a slight feel a big rig is coming up on me, is if I simply don't see it and I'm a bit more to the left of my lane. But even then, it's irrelevant.....

So you have ~ 500# a foot further behind the rear axles than I do. So, what's in my rear bays? Over the propane tank and genny, in the pass through is either folding chairs or a surf board, in either case irrelevant weight. In the rear bays, the only thing that weighs more than 10#s is my tool bag. Other than that, there is maybe 50#s of other stuff in the bays and pass through.

My point is, that a lot of weight behind the rear axle can cause the "tail wagging the dog" syndrome. The further the weight is behind the axle, the more pronounced the pendulum effect can be. It's just simple vehicle dynamics..... And if you have a tight grip on the wheel and fight it / while knuckle it, you just exaggerate the problem.

On the other hand, a light front axle can really give you funky steering / handling.....

As to side to side sway, again, I feel it's simply not an issue. No need for the CHF or aftermarket sway bars. If you feel like you are falling into the outside front tire in corners, just slow down more before you turn, and it will solve the problem. Your not on a race track, trying to optimize corner entry speed......

I've done moderate to significant suspension modifications to a couple of my cars, which both saw signficant time on a race track doing high performance driving events, so I get what suspension modifications can do.......

I read the article in Roughing is Smoothly. I'd love to drive my coach, a stock 32SA, and thier modified 32SA back to back........... So why did they tell you a bigger rear bar would help your coach? Just curious......

Regards

This is exactly how this subject always ends up, some like myself ( 38 foot, 22,500 empty, 26,000 on 22.5 tires) that stock felt totally unsafe. And someone like yourself that didn't have the same experience.
I have worked in the automotive industry for 38 years and have driven several million miles , owned and driven 3 5th wheels one slide-in camper and 5 Class A's.
I will tell you that even before the first modification, my motorhome drove so much better once we got out of southern CA. So much of this has to do with external conditions.

[Betr2Trvl]

BTW, here are my axle weights related to my post above.

F- 8,420# / 9k axle
R - 14,160# / 15.5 k axle

22,580# / 24k GVWR - 30k GCWR chassis

Toad - 4,600#s

Based on the Michelin charts, and with consideration for the +5+5 factors, I'm about 10#s over inflated front and rear at 96#F / 91#R, while on cooler days, I may only be 5#s too much.

[Boondockin]

1999 F53 here...

1. Polyurethane sway bar bushings front and rear... big difference

2. Added one leaf spring to the right rear to level it out and handle the extra 640 lb. weight difference on that side... big difference...

3. KONI shocks in the front... Monroe shocks in the rear.... not much difference...

4. Firestone airbags front and rear... huge difference...

5. CHF in the front... no noticeable difference... maybe because we had already installed the Firestone air bags but we didn't notice any difference...

6. Balancing beads in all 6 tires... big difference...

7. Tru-Balance wheel centering products... Wheel alignment tools... are a must for these trucks... centers the wheels on the axles... these along with the balancing beads took care of our vibration issues.... smoooooth


Handles and rides very good...enjoy driving it... still get a little push from certain high speed big trucks and hard cross winds... will be adding a rear track bar next to take care of that... possibly the air tabs and steer safe...

Our ride comfort depends highly on air bag and tire pressure... we currently run 90psi tire pressure in all 6 tires... 90 psi in the rear air bags and 35 psi in the front air bags...

[Boondockin]

Originally Posted by mrwrench

I pick up my Bounder from spring shop and it ride a lot better .but anyways I don't like f53 chassis . next step for me is buy a Workhorse chassis.

You mentioned that you had a leaf spring added to the front... what did you have the spring shop do to the rear?

[Sweetbriar]

Originally Posted by RickySpanish

Thanks all!

I just placed an order through Blue Ox for front and rear sway bars and the rear trac bar. Should be at my home by July 7th - I will definitely report my findings after I install the parts and give them a lengthy test drive.

Sorry to further step on this thread - but I rarely see mention of SumoSprings or airbag suspension set-ups. I'm strongly considering airbags, likely the Firestone Ride-Rite if I can find them for my year/GVWR. For some reason the SumoSprings bring up the skeptic in me - can anyone change my mind?

My coach is built on a 2006 18K lbs. F53 and over the past six years done a bunch of changes. CHF, correct tire pressure for axle capacity and Koni shocks had the greatest effect on ride and handling performance. Added a rear trac bar which pretty much tamed tail wag and I have been surprised a few times when a semi appeared in my window.

I have also added air bags to all four corners along with a compressor, gauges and valves which allows for on the road air pressure adjustment. The bags helped somewhat but the bang for the buck wasn't as much as what I hoped. I think the greatest benefit of the bags was restoring full loading ride height (primary benefit of bags) and the firming of the suspension and the resulting reduction of the suspension bottoming out on poor roads. Considered adding ride height valves but manual set up has worked well. Suspect Sumo springs would provide the same benefit but without the need to check and maintain air pressure. Rarely change air pressure while on the move but have found with a constant cross winds I can off set one side and reduce the amount of steering needed to counteract. I have used the bags to level the coach when parking lot boondocking rather than using the jacks.

For new owners of a coach built on a F53 my I recommend researching each potential upgrade and start with the low cost simple changes first. Correct tire pressure based on normal weight or axle load limits, check the rear sway bar bushings and performing the sway bar end link change of the CHF. Make a change and drive the coach for at least a thousand miles or more and evaluate if the performance is to your satisfaction or if you need to move to the next option. I've done back to back 500 mile days and ended each no more tired than I would have been driving the daily driver that far.

Good luck and see you on the road.

[TeJay]

Sweetbriar, great post and good accurate perspective on your MODS.

That's what we need to read about. Make your MODS one at a time and evaluate. Don't spend your $$$$$$ before doing the cheap things that have proven to be very helpful.

Always check to make sure what you have installed was done correctly. That's both factory and aftermarket shops. The use of blue lock tight has proven to be very helpful based on so many NEW & USED SB brackets bolts coming loose.

I do have one question. We had a coach with 4 bags and the on-board compressor. Are you able to add and remove air to each air bag or did they ask you to install a "T" so you adjust air for both fronts or both rears as the same time???? Using the "T" adds to the sway.

These ride and handling (R&H) discussions continue to take place and that's fine. It's still good to discuss this important aspect of our rigs. And it is nice to drive one that does handle well.

As always EVERY coach will respond in different ways to each proposed R&H MOD (modification). If there is just one correct answer to a R&H MOD it's this. The CHF does work and work well. It will in about 95+% of the time improve the SWAY of any F-53 chassis. At least that's what the 4,500+ posts on the CHF thread have reported. Yes the other choice one has is to pay $ 600 to $800 or more bucks and add new SB's. Some just don't always have the $$$$$ to do that.

GA Traveler another poster on these forums, has often responded to the question regarding the addition of Firestone air bags. He does have an excellent background working in a lot of different technical areas and I do respect his opinion. He also worked in the RV industry (15 years I think) and installed the Firestone's on a lot of different RV's with better than good results in R&H.

[Sweetbriar]

Originally Posted by TeJay

,,, I do have one question. We had a coach with 4 bags and the on-board compressor. Are you able to add and remove air to each air bag or did they ask you to install a "T" so you adjust air for both fronts or both rears as the same time???? Using the "T" adds to the sway. ,,,

I have mine set up so each bag is independent for the each other. It is best not to cross connect the bags. What will happen, for example, on a long ture as the coach sways to the outside of the turn the outer bag will compress and send air to the opposite side which will cause even great sway. Same for front to back.

I used four paddle valves installed to the left of the driver's seat to allow for individual fill or dump of each bag. Tried using low cost solenoids. Needed two solenoids for each bag. Had a lot of problems with leaks. Could have spent more on better valves but decided paddle valves gave the best performance for the cost. Plus I already had two so only need two more.

Top gauge is tank pressure followed by dual indicating gauges. The paddle valves are on each side of the gauges. The switches are for extra lighting I added and to turn the pump on and off. The tablet I use for a map display. Got bored a few winters ago and built the set up.

I'm debating reworking it all and changing over to ride height control valves.

[trode]

2003 F-53, 22,000 chasis

Have done Koni's, alignment at great truck shop, balance and true tires, weigh and adjust pressures, CHF, poly bushings, and Roadmaster reflex steering stabilizer. Ride much better, but I really think most effective, and oddly nearly reverse of cost, in order were...air pressure, CHF, alignment, balance, steering stabilizer then Koni's. Hard to tell about bushings did when I did the CHF.

Now, thinking about air bags.

As I have said time and time again, ain't the rig it's the roads! Mine drives like a dream on a smooth, level road.

Trucks passing me are not a big deal, little push but not bad, mostly ready because I see them coming, my most "disruptive" effects come after a semi rig passes me and then pulls right in front of me, the "air wake" of disturbed air behind it makes my rig get very skwirmy.

[TeJay]

Tom,
This "...air pressure, CHF, alignment," is the exact items in order that has been posted by many, many individuals. Do the easy cheap stuff first evaluate then start spending your $$$$$.

Can't disagree with the roads being the big issue but!!!. If all the roads were smooth it would be a perfect world. So we have bad roads & good roads. Have heard often that the 22.5" tires make a big difference as well as a DP air ride. Then I've heard the opposite about both claims. So what can one do but make the ride you have the best it can be.

Have also heard from GA Traveler several times who installed many set of air bags on many different coaches and the word he got (customers) was they really helped with the ride.

I still have to look at it this way. Even if I only get a 5% improvement it's an improvement. Add that to all the other improvements and we should have a good ride.

This has been said often. Based on the variables between coaches no one fix will give the exact same results. The only way to measure the effectiveness of each MOD is from the perspective of each owner.

The only MOD that won't always fit that is the CHF. That will almost universally give good results.

As of this trip all is well. Wind is almost never a factor. Semi's move us a bit but nothing of concern. We did a lot (350 miles or more) of 2-lane roads on this trip and semi's on opposite lane are a nothing.

I may drop the tire pressures tomorrow 2 lbs each and see what it does. I think we are at 86lb all around.

Sweetbriar, very nice set up with the air bags. That's some good quality workmanship. That is the way to do it.

[Thor396]

I have a 2000 Thor Four winds 35D. I have experienced the same. I just had Hankook 245/70R 19.5 steer tires installed and balanced. Front end alignment, all 4 rear tires balanced. I install Goodyear air bags front and rear. Air pressure set at 20 psi front, 25 psi on the rears. The coach card says Tire pressure is 80 psi all around which I set mine at. BOY what a difference this has made to my ride. I'm very happy with my improvements. Good luck....

[panthercity]

We bought our 2011 Winnebago Access Premier 31NP F53 a year-and-a-half ago. First thing I noticed was the sensitivity to wind/trucks/Class As. I had read during my research that the F53 was very particular about front-end alignment. I took it to Champion Springs in Fort Worth having worked with them for a couple of decades.
As soon as I went in, the manager said, "Really moves around on the road, right?" I said, "Yes, will y'all check the front alignment?"
He said, sure, they'd check it but he knew what the problem was, weak rear leaf springs.
He went on to explain that the rear springs on the F53 were NOT designed to carry the weight of an RV hung that far behind the axle.
He added a leaf on each side, verified the alignment and it was at least 60% better.
A month or so back, I went ahead and ordered the front and rear Hellwig anti-sway bar kits. Unfortunately, we got a real nice offer and I never made time to install them.

[KevanRO]

To all on this thread, I have a (somewhat unrelated) observation: I just purchased RV insurance through Good Sam (National General Ins. Co.) The agent was very concerned and verified three separate times that I had not performed ANY Chassis Modifications. I was told if there was evidence of ANYTHING not factory-stock, any potential claims would be voided. If stabilizers, improved sway bars, additional leaf springs, upgraded shock absorbers improve the ride and handling, why would a major insurance carrier be so concerned???