Ford F53 460 fuel injectors

[House Husband]

Those of us that elect to play around with our 460s, know that our fuel injectors are 24 lbs. hr. injectors. But, at what psi are they rated at 24 lbs. hr.? I can find no publication that offers that information.
The reason I ask is, Accel offers 26 lbs. hr. fuel injectors at 43.5 psi, that are a direct replacement for the OEM injectors in our 460s.
I'm building a stroker motor for my 95 Bounder and need to replace the injectors to correspond to the increased displacement.

Thanks for your response
Richard

[MT4Runner]

Factory fuel pump sends 30-40psi to them.


I don't know what they're rated at, but that's what they see.

[John58]

According to the workshop manual the OEM part number is 9F593 and the system is normally pressurized at 40 psi.




John/Lynette

1997 Fleetwood Bounder 30ft (Ford F53 V-8 460)

[stink]

Those will work. You probably will not gain any power as the PCM will compinsate for the higher fuel volume. I would not try any higher fuel flow injectors as the fuel maps in PCM will not support any higher.

[House Husband]

Originally Posted by stink

Those will work. You probably will not gain any power as the PCM will compinsate for the higher fuel volume. I would not try any higher fuel flow injectors as the fuel maps in PCM will not support any higher.

Maybe I should have give more information.
I'll be replacing my 460 with a 528 stroker. I only said "stroker" in my original post.
Thus I will need more fuel flow.
If The OEM injectors are rated at 24 lbs at 40 PSI? Then I'll gain nothing by installing injectors that are rated at 26 lbs. at 43.5 PSI.
So I need to know what PSI the OEM injectors are rated at.
Do the math.

Thanks
Richard

[MT4Runner]

Google search


2nd link:
Fuel Injector Conversions | Hemmings Motor News
"1988-'95 Ford Pickups with 460 and '93-'01 Lincoln: blue-top, 24 lb./min., EV-1 injectors"


It appears 43.5psi is the standard flow rate.
Ford Injectors, Domestic High Performance | FiveOMotorsport

[mpaton]

Originally Posted by RLS7201

Maybe I should have give more information.
I'll be replacing my 460 with a 528 stroker. I only said "stroker" in my original post.
Thus I will need more fuel flow.
If The OEM injectors are rated at 24 lbs at 40 PSI? Then I'll gain nothing by installing injectors that are rated at 26 lbs. at 43.5 PSI.
So I need to know what PSI the OEM injectors are rated at.
Do the math.

Thanks
Richard

Having seen your "interesting" thread on 460ford, I was wondering how your project was going.

The standard (but not universal) Ford injector pressure in the 90s, and the one that applies to your motor is 39.13 PSI across the injectors. If you want more flow, the math shows that flow goes up with the square of the pressure, so you need quite a bit more pressure to get the flow you'll need. However 60 and 80 lb/hr injectors are apparently available (probably rated at 3 bar or 42 psi) and they should work well for you even operating at 39 psi.

If you choose a higher pressure, then remember that if you retain the current system of a fixed pressure and a return fuel system, then your fuel pump will be working harder ALL the time, and most of us here know it's a little harder to replace fuel pumps on F53s than on Mustangs.

If you want even more forum abuse, you could try eectuning.com, where you'll likely be told to us an old ECU from an old Mustang, because it isn't Speed Density, leaving you with poor solution to control your E4OD.

However, as someone who has modified his 460, learned exactly what goes on in his Speed Density ECU, I'll say you'll need bigger injectors and you'll can keep your old ECU if you modify the code in it. All is working well for me.

[House Husband]

Thanks MT4Runner & mpaton. That's the input I was looking for.
I think I'll start with the 26 lbs. hr. Accel injectors. I have a BBK 1707 fuel pressure regulator on the way. My fuel pressure gauge says I operate between 32 & 40 lbs. now. I really don't want to up the fuel pressure but will go for a pound or two if I have to. Then there is always a TwEECer tuner if necessary.

I had to chuckle at the comment "If you want even more forum abuse, you could try eectuning.com". We all know the abuse part. 460Ford.com is no different than RV or boating forums.......GRIN

I put my trust in Cars By Carl in Colorado Springs to build my short block and provide a cam that will work with my ECM. Cam RPM range is from 1600-4400 RPM
The order was placed on March 16. I talked to Carl yesterday and all the parts are in place to build the short block to my specs. Pistons were custom made to my specs. for "D cup" volume. Can't zero deck the block until all the parts are in place. I expect the delivery in the next 3-4 weeks.
I don't plan to start the engine R&R until August. Wifey has rallys she wants to attend.
I'll document the engine and tranny R&R with photos from start to finish.
This thing should be a hoot if all goes well. See ya at the top of the hill.

Again, thanks for your input.
Richard

[mpaton]

Who's breaking in the cam?

Did you understand the math about pressure and flow?

How are you gong to have the ECU understand how much air is going into your bigger engine?

And why would you want to use a Tweecer?

[House Husband]

Originally Posted by mpaton

Who's breaking in the cam?

Did you understand the math about pressure and flow?

How are you gong to have the ECU understand how much air is going into your bigger engine?

And why would you want to use a Tweecer?

I'll be breaking in the cam myself, on start up. ZDDP package will be added. Flat tappet cams still work with mild spring pressure. All the hullabullo about flattening cams on start up mainly applies to those with high pressure spring sets. That will not be the case on my build.

No, tell me about pressure and flow. I did the % of CID increase ver the % of fuel flow increase with 26 lb. hr. injectors and the numbers are very close. That should satisfy the ECM data base. If not there are other options that I already listed.

There is no sensor on the SD EEC IV that measures air flow. I do not have MAF. It's all based on RPM, throttle setting, Oxygen sensor, vacuum, etc.

I don't want to use a TwEECer, but it is a option if necessary. Why do you question the TwEECer? Educate me.

As I reflect back on your first post on this subject, you suggest that 60 or 80 lb. hr. injectors would work for my build. That's just way over the top. Previous EFI 460 builds at much higher HP & RPM are using 30 lb. hr. injectors with great success.
We must have had different math teachers. GRIN.

Richard

[mpaton]

Originally Posted by RLS7201

I'll be breaking in the cam myself, on start up. ZDDP package will be added. Flat tappet cams still work with mild spring pressure. All the hullabullo about flattening cams on start up mainly applies to those with high pressure spring sets. That will not be the case on my build.

I think the introduction of inexpensive but variable quality Chinese made cams and lifters has something to do with it as well. That all being said, There is another engine builder also in Colorado who provides a cam breakin service. He runs he cam in a block by electric motor, well lubricated, and he gradually increases spring load . You then get a box of numbered lifters to match the cam lobes. Might be overkill, but it was worth my $30.

Originally Posted by RLS7201

No, tell me about pressure and flow. I did the % of CID increase ver the % of fuel flow increase with 26 lb. hr. injectors and the numbers are very close. That should satisfy the ECM data base. If not there are other options that I already listed.

You propose increasing displacement by 15%. To get 15% more fuel flow from the same injectors, you'll need to up the pressure by 30%. That's the math from my earlier post.

As your Accel injectors are rated higher flow at higher pressure, they aren't going to give you any benefit over your stock injectors.

Originally Posted by RLS7201

There is no sensor on the SD EEC IV that measures air flow. I do not have MAF. It's all based on RPM, throttle setting, Oxygen sensor, vacuum, etc.

I know exactly how airflow is measured. Throttle does not come into it, nor does the Oxygen sensor. It's computed based on Manifold pressure, rpm, intake air temp and knowledge of the engine displacement. There is also a table to compensate for resonances in the intake manifold.

So to do it right, you should be changing the figure used for engine displacement.

Originally Posted by RLS7201

I don't want to use a TwEECer, but it is a option if necessary. Why do you question the TwEECer? Educate me.

The Tweecer used to be the only thing available aside from a chip adapter. There is now a half priced alternative called Quarterhorse. The trouble with the Tweecer is that it is proprietary, and needs software supplied from the vendor, and that software is not only unreliable,but also can be wrong and dangerous. Software available for the Quarterhorse is sometimes available for the Tweecer, but it is reverse engineered and also sometimes inaccurate.

But all that aside to just say that, as a last resort, a Tweecer is available, is like saying that one can still buy crankshaft making machines, so your engine can have any stroke you want.

Do you yourself understand what a Tweecer does, so that you can set your engine up yourself, or do you intend to hire someone else to do it? Because most Ford tuners don't do Speed Density systems. SD is just fine for your purpose, but you may not get much useful help for hire.

Originally Posted by RLS7201

As I reflect back on your first post on this subject, you suggest that 60 or 80 lb. hr. injectors would work for my build. That's just way over the top. Previous EFI 460 builds at much higher HP & RPM are using 30 lb. hr. injectors with great success.
We must have had different math teachers. GRIN.

Richard

While you may well not need flows of 60 or 80 lbs/hr, those flow rates are not the sole properties of fuel injectors. Those injectors have other qualities which would help them work better in your application, because they are more modern, and I consider it premature to reject them out of hand.

Your original 460Ford post suggested you wanted to do much of this yourself as a fun and educational project. Is this still the case, or will you have to find "experts" and then decide which of them to trust? To make this work well, (and I have no doubt that this is theoretically possible) you may be in for more education than you expected.

[MT4Runner]

Originally Posted by mpaton

I know exactly how airflow is measured. Throttle does not come into it, nor does the Oxygen sensor. It's computed based on Manifold pressure, rpm, intake air temp and knowledge of the engine displacement. There is also a table to compensate for resonances in the intake manifold.

Is this table fixed, or can the computer "learn" if a different intake manifold is installed?

[House Husband]

mpaton, i'm not unacknowledged, just a little out of date. I spent many years working as an auto mechanic in an independent garage and many nights and weekends working as an automotive machinist. Then I moved on to maintaining high speed production facilities. In my spare time I taught myself computer code and wrote several utilities, just for fun. So there is nothing the TwEECer can throw at me that I can't handle. Your treating me like an idiot is uncalled for. Your insistence on 60 & 80 lb. injectors just goes to diminish your credibility. Seeing how you have nothing productive to offer any more, I'll just move on and not read or respond to any more your nonsense.

Richard

[mpaton]

Originally Posted by RLS7201

mpaton, i'm not unacknowledged, just a little out of date. I spent many years working as an auto mechanic in an independent garage and many nights and weekends working as an automotive machinist. Then I moved on to maintaining high speed production facilities. In my spare time I taught myself computer code and wrote several utilities, just for fun. So there is nothing the TwEECer can throw at me that I can't handle. Your treating me like an idiot is uncalled for. Your insistence on 60 & 80 lb. injectors just goes to diminish your credibility. Seeing how you have nothing productive to offer any more, I'll just move on and not read or respond to any more your nonsense.

Richard

Good to see you are consistent in your attitude to people across the different forums.

I am not treating you like an idiot, but you do appear uninformed about how to do this. There is no disgrace in that, I am uninformed on lots of things, but not this.

If you would actually read my post instead of assuming you know what I must mean, you'll see no insistence on 60 or 80 lb injectors. The ones to which I am referring have other useful qualities which could help you.

As someone who has done this all before, I was prepared to help you understand what you may have been missing with practical advice, which you could take or leave. I am glad to know early on that you are capable of doing everything. Unlike you, I shall be reading your future posts on your project with interest, but like the experts on 460ford, I am relieved that you don't need any help from me.