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Tricolor · 05-26-2015, 08:56 AM

I have been juggling with the thought that while the CHF reduces the sway, it may also induce more firmness in the ride.

Tejay and other contributer to the McKinley cheap Handling Fix are welcome to comment on my reflexions:

1- The CHF allows the anti-swaybar to be more efficient by adding resistance to its flexion.
2- The up or down movement of that wheel does not translate so much into a rocking movement of the MH because part of the force is transferred to the other side in an opposite resistance (counterbalance?) via the anti-swaybar.
3- The wheel movement is partially absorbed by the suspension elements (spring leaves and shocks), mostly on the pothole side.
4- As both sides of the suspension are more thightly linked by the anti-sway bar, part of the sudden shock caused by the bump is now absorbed by the opposite wheel suspension as well.

In conclusion: The stronger the anti-sway bar, the thighter the link between the two suspensions sides, the bumppier the ride????

TeJay · 05-26-2015, 03:05 PM

Your thinking may have some merit but. I have always had somewhat of a difficult time visually wrapping my heard around things when they get involved as you described. This much I can answer to.

When the coach is moved by wind or when entering a drive with dips the initial movement (sway) of the coach is used to load the torsion or twisting of the SB. The result is since the loading is somewhat gradual there is little immediate stoppage of the motion. As the SB becomes loaded since it is gradual there does not feel like there is any increase in stiffness or harshness.

I can honestly say that I don't find the ride harsher or stiffer. If one were to add another spring to the leafs then yes that would take more energy to compress the spring and would stiffen the ride.

In #1 statement you said that the CHF added, "Resistance" to the flexing. Resistance is not the correct word. Yes it does require more energy to twist the bar because the leverage point has changed but changing the leverage point does not make the bar stiffer. The stabilizer bar is still the same steel and the same diameter it's the leverage point that has changed.

Here's another way of looking at it. Lets consider the two holes of the bar as:

Hole #1 (outer) on the end of the bar or the original connecting point from the factory.

Hole #2 (inner)CHF connection.

If 100 lbs of force is applied to Hole #1 the SB (stabilizer bar) moves say 2".
If 100 lbs of force is applied to hole #2 the SB moves 1".

Same energy but the bar deflects less because of the change in leverage points. That does not translate into a harsher ride. It says that there is less coach movement for the same amount of deflection force. Net results means less sway for the same deflection force.

Now take the SB off and replace with a larger diameter one. You have changed the force necessary to twist the bar by making it bigger. Apply the same 100 lbs of force and you will have less movement and all movement will be stiffer. That would translate into a stiffer and perhaps a harsher ride.

Since I don't have or see any harshness to the ride I'm happy. This is my opinion and I'm sure others may point out any flaws in that thinking and that's just fine. Like I said earlier it's tough understanding these things when so much is happening at once. It does give one food for thought and I like taxing my brain.

Your observation about nothing happens in the suspension completely independent of other items involved is spot on. Everything works together as a unit. Even the shocks will dampen not only the leaf spring compression and rebound (as they are intended) but they all types of suspension, sway, tail wagging etc movement to some degree. That has always been my main point with the suspension. All parts work together to control the coach or no one item works completely independently of the others.

TeJay

Tricolor · 05-26-2015, 03:26 PM

Thanks for the lenghty explanation. I'll reread it at least twice to make sure I fully understand the reasonning, but roughly, I beleive you just busted my excuse for going to a softer shock:
Tomorrow, I'am having the original front Bilstein replaced by Monroe Magnum while the mechanic adjust the Safe-t Plus and performs the CHF.

So far, my Vista only behaves erraticly in presence of strong winds and I figured the CHF would help in correcting that.
I also want the ride to be a little softer. Since the Kelderman Stage II suspension upgrade uses the Monroes, I though I would give it a try.

If the ride is affercted too much (bouncy, bottoming or harsher), I'll know it is the new shocks... the CHF should not be blamed.. right?

cwit · 05-26-2015, 05:01 PM

Right.

TeJay · 05-27-2015, 05:43 AM

I'll add this as well. The R&H (ride & handling) is affected by so many variables it's not fair to blame any one item. Then throw in the individuals and their perceptions about what is comfortable and what's not and you have a real mess.

I'm reminded of years ago when I had to do a shock change on one of my vehicles. I was new at the stuff so I just didn't THINK. I THOUGHT the shocks were bad but. So I changed them. On my way home the difference was night and day. The shocks died such a gradual death I got use to the changes gradually. I thought that's how it's supposed to ride. That was until I changed the shocks.

I've read many a post where the owner said. "My ride is great right from the factory." I always responded, "I'm happy for you but not everybody is that lucky."
Again because of all the variables even between coaches of the same model you have loading differences.

Each change or MOD that is done should be completed then evaluated and given a % of how it helped or didn't.

Some have changed to poly stabilizer bushings and noticed a major improvement in the R&H. Go figure!!

Shocks are another story. I wish I knew more about them. I have learned that a steering shock is designed to work laying flat. A stock shock won't work that way. I has to do with the flow of the dampening agent. Maybe a gas shock is OK. Again I just don't know enough about them. I relied on personal experiences. Many, many a poster swore by the Koni's. They would say, "Why did I wait so long?" At $160 each I had to wait. I've got them on the fronts and will have them on the rear's today. They worked well on the front and I'm sure I'll see improvement on the rears. We'll see.

With everything: Shocks, balancers, steering shock, track bar, steer-safe I've invested another $1,600 in the MH. I'm happy with the improvements. I may still add air bags, we'll see.
If you throw in the 5 Star tune ($400), which I would have paid $1,000 for I'm up to $2,000. The 5 star tune even on a 20 mile trip was a great improvement in the HP, shifting and just general ride comfort. Would do it again in a heart beat.

TeJay.

PushedAround · 05-27-2015, 06:02 AM

The CFH simply increases the roll resistance of the sway bar by (as previously stated) by increasing it's leverage. This is a perfectly normal thing to do and many automotive sway bars are adjustable in this fashion for suspension tuning. Due to the way sway bars operate, it may cause increased harshness on one wheel bumps, but will have no affect whatsoever on two wheel bumps (like expansion joints etc).

Tricolor · 05-27-2015, 09:01 PM

Well, today while my MH was in for a front wheel check, I had the front CHF done AND the Monroe Magnum shocks installed.

Comments: this rig only has 2200 miles done and the alignment did not require any adjustment, as per printout.

Then I went for a 20 miles test ride: I did not feel a noticable change in the sway yet.
1- The replacement shocks ARE softer
2- It now feels as if I got more "loose" in the steering wheel. I can easily turn the steering 15 degrees either side from centre without any direction change where B4 it felt more like 10 degrees.

I was truly hoping for more firmness in the steering but, reading from experienced posters, I may have to accept the fact that I am not driving a car.

In my list of coming mods: Rear CHF and Homemade Trackbar.

TeJay · 05-28-2015, 05:49 AM

Just one comment for now. Just because they didn't do any adjustments does not mean that it is set for an RV. I just spoke with another poster on these forums. He lives in FL and took his unit in for an alignment (only 2,000 miles). On the trip over he was white knuckled for the 20 miles. On the trip home he was setting back with one hand on the wheel doing 70 MPH instead of the 55 MPH on the way over. Very dramatic difference.

The tech that did the work showed him everything he did. He also took a print out of some information that I gave him and the tech agreed and said that he (the tech) knows how to set it up for an RV instead of a dump truck. There are differences in the setting if you find a tech that knows what he's doing.

This is important information. We are used to accepting what a tech says and does but it may not always be based on good information. These are cautions that I try to share with anybody having an alignment because it can be vastly different in handling based on what the tech knows.

Got to go.

TeJay

cbilodeau · 05-28-2015, 10:12 AM

I know very little about all these things. But here are my comments:

1 - LENGHT: If you have a 26 foot, and someone answer you and has a 38 foot, I am sure his own experience will be completly irrelevant.

2 - PSYCHOLOGICAL : I have a 36.5'. It is only after 3000 miles I became confident in my motorhome and I relaxed my hands and heart. With no fix I was driven at 70 MPH for hours in the wind. Before that every blow of wind and I was afraid even at 50 MPH.

Would the CHF make more difference on a 26' or a 38'. Would it be softer on 26 than 38'?

I just added a Steering Stabilizer for 130$, (I created a thread here about it) but I did it because I had ordered it before I became confident in my motorhome.

I don't have the CHF. Probably could be good but Ford never change the hole for the newers ones either.

Tricolor · 05-28-2015, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbilodeau

I know very little about all these things. But here are my comments:

1 - LENGHT: If you have a 26 foot, and someone answer you and has a 38 foot, I am sure his own experience will be completly irrelevant.

2 - PSYCHOLOGICAL : I have a 36.5'. It is only after 3000 miles I became confident in my motorhome and I relaxed my hands and heart. With no fix I was driven at 70 MPH for hours in the wind. Before that every blow of wind and I was afraid even at 50 MPH.

Would the CHF make more difference on a 26' or a 38'. Would it be softer on 26 than 38'?

I suppose you're right. But I wish this thing becomes "driveable" for the wife as well.

And I am investing in the long term, intending to keep this rig for many years and long travels (Alaska in 3 weeks).

So I will keep on searching for the best configuration of mods and adjustment. Tomorrow is the rear CHF and homemade trackbar.

Tricolor · 05-28-2015, 02:18 PM

are these numbers adequate for a 2013 F53?

WBandJ · 05-28-2015, 02:42 PM

We live in Western NY, the homeland of potholes and rough roads, and I could feel the increased harshness of the ride when I did the CHF to the front sway bar. I decided to live with the OEM sway rather than shake the RV apart. Maybe a change of front shocks would improve the harshness, but the OEM's only had 2000 miles on them.

cbilodeau · 05-28-2015, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tricolor

I suppose you're right. But I wish this thing becomes "driveable" for the wife as well.

....

It is probably 3000 miles for your wife too. We should open a new thread telling people to wait 3000 miles per driver before doing any modification.

I really think that in 3000 miles, you would remove all your futures modifications without telling her and she would still be going at 70 MPH with wind and pass those slow trucks.

If I had put 2000$ worth of special features I am sure I would not have known that it is me that changed my attitude and confidence.

But I could be all wrong since we don't have the same weight and number of feet and center of gravity (I have 19.5" tires, you probably have 22.5").

cbilodeau · 05-28-2015, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WBandJ

We live in Western NY, the homeland of potholes and rough roads, and I could feel the increased harshness of the ride when I did the CHF to the front sway bar. I decided to live with the OEM sway rather than shake the RV apart. Maybe a change of front shocks would improve the harshness, but the OEM's only had 2000 miles on them.

You have the worst roads I have ever seen in my life. Been there last year. It is very simple: my vehicule was not built for these kind of roads. I should have put the 4 flashers (hazard) to respect my truck.