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Old 10-20-2016, 08:44 PM   #1
RRR
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Kingpin Issue

I have been chasing a possible wheel balance, out of round or who knows what since new. 2015 F53, 22,000 pound chassis, 5300 miles, Michlin 235/80R 22.5 tires. Stock Ford alloy wheels.

Took into tire shop to have them help diagnose problem. They say wheel is running true, tire mounted correct, no broken belts and all looks good. One thing that they found was a "slightly" loose kingpin. They rebalanced and ended up with no real change in weights, taking only 2.5 oz on left and 5.5 on the right.

I contacted the local Ford dealer and they kind of blew off the kingpin, and want me to have a Road Force Balance done. After talking to another longtime wheel and front end person he says he would be "very concerned" about the kingpin issue and to get it resolved before throwing more money at balancing. Also saying that a kingpin shouldn't have any play in it.

Talking to my Fleetwood dealer, who is helping, they say it isn't the first problem with the F53 front end they have seen.

Anyone have something similar happen? Advice?

Going to start making some calls to Fleetwood and see if they will help lean on the proper people. Maybe Ford to, as soon as I get the MH back from Cummins for a Code 41 on the generator.
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Old 10-20-2016, 09:14 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RRR View Post
I have been chasing a possible wheel balance, out of round or who knows what since new. 2015 F53, 22,000 pound chassis, 5300 miles, Michlin 235/80R 22.5 tires. Stock Ford alloy wheels.

Took into tire shop to have them help diagnose problem. They say wheel is running true, tire mounted correct, no broken belts and all looks good. One thing that they found was a "slightly" loose kingpin. They rebalanced and ended up with no real change in weights, taking only 2.5 oz on left and 5.5 on the right..

I contacted the local Ford dealer and they kind of blew off the kingpin, and want me to have a Road Force Balance done. After talking to another longtime wheel and front end person he says he would be "very concerned" about the kingpin issue and to get it resolved before throwing more money at balancing. Also saying that a kingpin shouldn't have any play in it.

Talking to my Fleetwood dealer, who is helping, they say it isn't the first problem with the F53 front end they have seen.

Anyone have something similar happen? Advice?

Going to start making some calls to Fleetwood and see if they will help lean on the proper people. Maybe Ford to, as soon as I get the MH back from Cummins for a Code 41 on the generator.
Road force was a great suggestion... the kingpin issue dependent on looseness is an issue but possibly not creating the unbalance feel but with only 5300 miles I might be concerned. With the alloy wheels, rotating front to back would not be possible.. without a demount remount.if you do not perform the road force then your options are restricted. But you could do this,,. Do you have a spare??? I would, after balancing the spare, swap the spare for a front tire one at a time. When you say it is a vibration, does the steering vibrate or oscillate? When vibrates, what speed and does it vibrate at a constant speed does it appear to go harsh too not as bad? For not requiring much change 5.5 oz is quite a lot!!!
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Old 10-20-2016, 09:24 PM   #3
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I chased a frontend vib on my 2003 WorkHorse chassis for months. Ended up trying Equal balance beads in front tires and has been quiet ever since.
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Old 10-21-2016, 08:05 AM   #4
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RRR,

You may be familiar with, "David Oh's" thread. For over7-8 months he had a vibration problem on a new coach. He/they tried everything with not much success. You can google his name and find his thread from about 18 months ago. It would be a good read as you prepare to solve your vibration issue.

When Dave began his journey he was not a mechanic and not very knowledgeable with things concerning vibrations. He has become the 1RV2 forum's self taught expert.

As far as a different way to balance wheels/rims I've tried the balance beads and did not like them. Several issues one is if i changed tires or sold my unit those beads stay with the old coach or have to be replaced.

I chose Centrimatic Balancers which are more expensive but can be used on any coach and for many miles as long as you don't change tire/rim sizes.

I'm also familiar with the Road Force Balancer. Yes they add one more measure of balancing but the number of tires that actually require it I'm still not sure.

Here's how the RFB system was explained to me. With a radial tire think of the tire as having rows of 1" in diameter compression springs running from one bead all the way around the tire. That's radially from the bead down the sidewall across the tread then up the other sidewall to the opposite bead.

The RFB machine will place a force against the tread of the tire and measure the opposing spring (sidewall) pressure of those springs pushing back on the force. If it senses a weakness in one or some of those springs it will alert the operator of an imbalance.

That may not be a real good explanation but it's what i got at the Hunter Alignment school in St. Louis, MO several years ago. It did make sense at the time but I was to new to it to ask questions. What I failed to ask is how will adding weights to a rim correct what the RFB machine detected???

As you read Dave's thread you'll see that he had his tires/rims RBF. I believe at least twice with no reduction in vibration.

As far as the king pins the amount of KP movement in any KP suspension system should be minimal. Second bit of advice is this. Why do we have KP's on the F-53 chassis. It is a truck chassis and the KP is the toughest steering system out there. It's the toughest but not the smoothest. They will last for many, many thousands of miles. For there to be ANY KP play with under 10,000 miles should be unacceptable in anybodies book.

See if anybody can tell you what the acceptable play is in the F-53 KP system. As far as I understand there should be none or just enough clearance to allow the tire to smoothly turn in the knuckle.

You may know and understand this but some reading it may not. A KP front suspension is just like a door hinge. A large (1" or about) hardened round pin is pressed through two hinges (bushings) one on the top of the steering knuckle and one on the bottom. The steering knuckle has two bronze bushings which are precisely reamed out for a very snug/tight fit. You can google a KP front suspension and see how this all goes together for better understanding.

When these coaches are built machines do all of this so it's difficult to believe that a bushing would be reamed larger than is needed. The KP is a hardened machined piece of steel. The bronze bushing is reamed to fit the already specific sized KP. How that can be screwed up would be a mystery to me.

I've worked in those factories and know how all that stuff is automated. The automation removes the ability for one person to ream a hole in a bushing larger so the KP would fit loosely. If a specific reamer did break and needed changed it's not like they have a dozen sizes from which to choose a new one since all the bushings are to be reamed the same size. It really would have to be deliberate sabotage.

Yes anything it is possible but IMO highly unlikely.

When you find a shop that says the KP's are worn/loose ask them to show you how they tested the KP to determine that it is loose. I see no reason why they wouldn't show you. It's really a simple process. Here's how you'd check your door hinge to see if it's loose.

Open any door (entry,closet,car, truck etc) about half way. Grab the door on its outside edge around the handle area and just try to lift corner the door up. If it moves the hinge pin or hinge is worn and the door will tilt slightly up and down.

Good luck!!
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Old 10-21-2016, 11:04 AM   #5
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I intentionally left out the fact that I installed Centramatics a few weeks after I bought it. So many people think that they are snake oil and I wanted to focus on a KP issue or balance problem. I did the fronts first, did a 200 mile trip then did the rears, both with no change.

FWIW I sent an e-mail to Centramatics to pick their brain, Jerry called me back the next morning and talked to me for an hour. Now that customer service! I also have some past experience with Centramatics involving a triple digit truck. That's all I'll say on that.

I was standing right next to the wheel when they did the KP check. Left one is the loose one. That is also the side I perceive that is the problem side. It is also the side that took the 2.5 oz weight.

I was thinking about moving the fronts to the rear. That might be the fastest way to go to solving the problem or at least isolating it.

It is a definite wheel shake/bounce/hop right up the steering wheel. While I thought about a drivetrain problem I think it would show up more as a vibration. I'm gonna have to start looking in to reinforcing the dash if I can't get this resolved.

I'll look up David Oh thread. Might learn something new.

Thanks to all.
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Old 10-21-2016, 12:39 PM   #6
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RRR, Well Dave didn't have any luck with the Certramatics either. However it does rule out an imbalance problem. It does not rule out run-out or out-of round either. Neither of those are fixed by balancing.

If the left KP is loose (out of specs) why won't they just change it??? I can't believe they think it's OK to have a worn out KP with just 5,300 miles on it.

I agree 100% with the tire rotation idea. For some reason Davidjeff said with alloy rims you have to R&R the tires to switch them around. I've never had alloy rims so I don't know. I guess putting the rears together with the fancy alloy front of the rims facing each other just won't work.

Knowing what i know from Dave's problems I'd pay to have the tires swapped around. This is something that is spinning and with a sufficient amount of weight to cause your vibration. Even a perfectly balanced tire that has some rout-of-round issues will bounce up and down as it travels down the road. It's not out of balance it's just not round.

I even suggested this as a possible fix and was almost laughed off the forums. We have a dealer who sold you the unit. Now we have some other folks involved to get it fixed. I know the selling dealer will have another vehicle around with the 22-5" tires and rims that would fit your coach. You know what I'm going to say next??

NOT!!! When I suggested the idea it was never done. WHY?? I don't know. Some said it was to expensive to do it. Well 8 months later and several trips and dealers seemed like an awful lot of $$$$ to spend with no solution at the end either.

Yes take two known good tires and rims from another coach and put them on yours up front. In less than an hour and very few miles on the new tires and rims and you know if it's your tires and rims. Seems like a simple process with very little expense. Now who's tires. OK, have the selling dealer take two tires and rims from a new coach that they have test driven and they are fine. Nobody will ever know when that unit is sold that those tires and rims were used to diagnose a vibration issue.

That idea from me met with a lot of criticism. I still think I was right.

Dave went round and round and it ended up being some bad tires. The problem that many, many people run into is simply this.

We've put new tires on so that can't be the problem. We've had the tires balanced several times so that can't be the problem.

Just because something was done does not mean that it was done correctly. There is no absolute guarantee that the new tire wasn't a bad out-of-round tire. There's just no absolute guarantee that the tech did the balance job correctly. Are the tires correctly seated on the rims??

What Dave discovered is he had an issue that was not the standard fix and nobody could think outside the box nor accept that perhaps something that was previously done was not done correctly. They kept making assumptions that all the previous work done was correct so we won't do it again.

With about 700 miles on our new RV it would pull to the right. Took it to GY. They wouldn't do anything. Took it to the dealer and they authorized an alignment. Meanwhile I just took the front tires of and swapped them rim and all. The problem went away, completely.

Had the alignment done and all angles were off. I took the fronts off and put them back to the original positions and the pull came back. Back to the GY dealer. They the pone tire off the rim and just rotated it 180 degrees. The pull went away. It's called radial pull. About 18 months later I swapped the front tires again and no pull.
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Old 10-21-2016, 01:11 PM   #7
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Road force balancing is somewhat deceptive in its name, what it actually does is help you to determine if the tire is installed in its most optimum position on the wheel. It will give a reading and depending on type and size of tire there are pass/fail values which you can compare to what is measured. After the ck of road force yes it displays the weights required but if you choose you can then (match force) the assy. It has you measure the concentricity of the wheel and then will show you where to mark the tire and then the rim to breakdown and spin tire on the rim for a good match. I have seen and experienced and driven vehicles with poorly matched wheels and tires that drove tremendously better. I have seen assy's that afterwards have stopped a perceived pull or drift acting like an alignment problem. And I have driven vehicle that when checked showed road force as high as 60 then match force to bring it too 13 which then eliminated a vibration concern that a simple balancer did not show... the suggestions of trying an entire different set of proven frt tires is wonderful , one that I did not suggest Assuming he might not have that option ( my bad,as we all know what Assume means),,lol hope you resolve the issue but simple balancing is just a start
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Old 10-21-2016, 02:13 PM   #8
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Davidjeff,

As I stated when I suggested the idea of finding a known good set I was almost laughed off the forums. I thought it was a perfectly reasonable idea. I couldn't believe the kick back. The satisfaction I got was when they finally decided that his tires and rims were bad. That could have been determined months before.

Excellent information on the RF balance. Not sure to many of the techs will know all that stuff. My experience has been if it does not get used often they soon forget the possibilities with the technology.

Your statement at the end concerning balancing as a start was also spot on. Unfortunately that is often where they stop. Dave told us that he actually had to buy a run-out gauge because nobody had one to measure the tires RO.

Probably the best place to get good tire service would be the larger shops especially ones that do a lot of truck and semi tires. I've used Wing Foot at times with good success. The regular GY stores don't deal with the larger sizes that much so are not as versed in them.
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Old 10-21-2016, 03:10 PM   #9
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I totally agree with everything you have stated and suggested, A little background on me ...... I am currently a mechanic and have been on Fords at a stealership since 81 prior to that I worked for a Gm/Toyota dealer for 4 years and started at a Goodyear tire combo evinrude boat store installing a/c units in cars/ trucks.. I have learned a lot and still learning more... though I am new to the rv scene in less than 4 months I feel I might can help assist here as I have found this sight to be very helpful to me and will be in the future so I should also contribute what I can... I will say though this sight has cost me quite a sum showing me what to buy in order to save me more in the long run... thanks to all on here for things you have posted unbeknownst to you who it may help
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Old 10-21-2016, 03:20 PM   #10
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I had a very similar issue last month. 2016 F53 26K chassis with less than 2800 miles; the thing handled like an abomination. Front end was all over the road no matter what the driving conditions -

When I finally got into the front end shop I learned that the right side wheel assembly was not shimmed properly and the kingpin had not been installed correctly during manufacture. When the tech motioned for me to come down into the pit so that he could show me something I knew I was looking at more than just a front end alignment -

He raised the left axle nothing happened. When the right side was raised the wheel/hub assembly would drop 1 to 2 inches and make a loud banging sound. Had I not taken this to a highly respected truck front end shop here I might never have found this out. The shop recommended that I not drive it until repaired -

I called Ford Motorhome Customer Care and explained my situation. Of course they said that I would have to drive it to a Ford dealer and have repairs made under warranty or I would have to pay out of my pocket; my nearest dealer that will work on a motorhome is all most 2 hours away -

I paid for the repair and submitted a claim to Ford - approx $2200.00. They reimbursed me 100% of the cost and even called to apologize for my inconvenience -

There is no comparison to the before and after handling of my Coach - it is the Cat's Meow!

Good luck!
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Old 10-21-2016, 07:52 PM   #11
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This company specializes in kingpin repair, they are a nationwide service provider.

http://axlesurgeons.com:82/TabbedUI_services.a5w
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Old 10-21-2016, 09:34 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by crey0517 View Post
I had a very similar issue last month. 2016 F53 26K chassis with less than 2800 miles; the thing handled like an abomination. Front end was all over the road no matter what the driving conditions -

When I finally got into the front end shop I learned that the right side wheel assembly was not shimmed properly and the kingpin had not been installed correctly during manufacture. When the tech motioned for me to come down into the pit so that he could show me something I knew I was looking at more than just a front end alignment -

He raised the left axle nothing happened. When the right side was raised the wheel/hub assembly would drop 1 to 2 inches and make a loud banging sound. Had I not taken this to a highly respected truck front end shop here I might never have found this out. The shop recommended that I not drive it until repaired -

I called Ford Motorhome Customer Care and explained my situation. Of course they said that I would have to drive it to a Ford dealer and have repairs made under warranty or I would have to pay out of my pocket; my nearest dealer that will work on a motorhome is all most 2 hours away -

I paid for the repair and submitted a claim to Ford - approx $2200.00. They reimbursed me 100% of the cost and even called to apologize for my inconvenience -

There is no comparison to the before and after handling of my Coach - it is the Cat's Meow!

Good luck!
You are exactly correct when you state Fords reimbursement for your repairs in most all situations they will pay and also reimburse for rent car and sometimes motel under certain situations..
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Old 10-29-2016, 07:32 AM   #13
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Please do note:

The FIRST problem I had when tracking down the vibration was: LOOSE KINGPINS (hence the title of my epic post). They were defective from the factory and Ford replaced both. They did not affect vibration, but it did stop a rattle I had when going over bumps that I had attributed to the slide....If your kingpins are a "little loose", they're defective. I'm not the only one to have had this problem, and apparently it still does occur occasionally on new chassis.

Ford also eventually rebalanced my drive shaft - was way out of balance according to the Ford dealer who took over a month and a half to have it rebalanced and reinstalled.

In retrospect, the handling (not vibration) issues I also had may have also been attributed to the fact that the 16K lb chassis I had did not come with a front trac bar.

Road Force Balancing: depends on the mechanic and if they actually QC the machine. One of the Ford dealers I was sent to by Ford claimed to have road-forced the tires, charged me for it, and it made no difference. The final light truck dealer I used to install Michelins after giving up on Goodyears (total of 8 GYs swapped-out) seemed to know their stuff and made a noticeable improvement.

Leading to TIRES: Goodyear, BTW, swapped out all 6 tires, the shop they sent me to claimed to have road-forced them with a machine at another shop that was a better machine. Lots of threads on GY vs Michelin vs Toyo vs ......... I don't know what to say except that swapping from GY to Michelin on a new MH changed the ride. Smoother but squirrelier with the Michelins - I believe that LVRVLUVR has stated that Michelin told him it would take a couple of thousand miles for the tires to settle down.

I traded the Thor after a year and a half. no regrets.

Getting back to the original Kingpin concern: Call Ford MH division and let them know, this is not an unheard of problem and Ford didn't blow me off - but it should probably come from MH division not the dealer.

Best of luck

Dave-Oh.
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Old 10-29-2016, 08:40 AM   #14
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Few years back & I believe it was on RV.Net where I read it, a member was having the same type of problem, bounce in the front end. Thread went on for a good while until one member had gone through the same issue. He stated that the center part of the hub, the piece the rim will slip over was to small allowing the rim not to center up like suppose to & after contacting Ford, they sent him a shim to go over the hub which would center the rim onto the hub.
I could see how the rim being off center, not by much but could cause the outer part of the tire to seem like it is out of round.
Never was any mention, of what the shim Ford sent looked like or the thickness of that shim.
Far as the KPs being loose, if that would be causing the issue, wouldnt the front end need to become lightened to free up the movement in the pin area. I could see maybe that happening in some sections of road where the road surface is up & down or bridge surfaces.
Honestly, on our F53 M/H, on roads that have been resurfaced & are pretty much smooth, we have no issues of bounce or wiggle of the steering wheel. Its just on the ruff sections of highway, which is around 85% of the roads we have to travel that we go through this type of issues.
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