Solenoid Problem1996 Pace 35W on 1995 F53 Frame

[joneldbrat]

I posted information about this problem in an earlier post. But the problem still exits and possibly worse. Could not start the motor on my Motor Home there was just a clicking to the right of the gas pedal in engine compartment. When I turned the key to try and start the engine while my son tapped lightly on the starter solenoid to the right of the gas pedal. A couple of light taps and it started. So I went to my friendly Advanced Auto Parts store to purchase new Solenoid. I was given one that had 2 large battery posts and 2 smaller posts. One marked S the other marked I. The one I removed only had 1 small post labeled S no I post. The guy at Advanced told me it would work just use the post marked S. He said that there are 2 listed one for light duty and 1 for heavy duty which he sold me. Talked to the local Ford parts and he said the same thing. Now the tricky part we installed said solenoid as instructed receiving 2 scratched bloody hands and arms while trying to reach far enough in to remove wiring and mounting bolts. (Heaven forbid that they could have added a few inches of wire and mounted it to be more accessible.)Turn the key on to try and start still just clicks. The other weird thing is I turn my headlights on and there is no light. But when I turn the key to start the lights come on the overhead dash lights also come on. All offers appreciated.

John

[Wanabee FTer]

I would suspect a bad chassis battery connection. Remove both the cables and use a good battery terminal cleaner on the battery and cable ends. Also check the battery and charge it up.
When you tapped on the solenoid and the engine started, that may have been a coincidence. The lights not working until ignition is turned to start is probably because the added starter amperage is causing a bad connection to connect (slightly)

[justimagination]

John sorry your having problems, and I know where your at. I would trace the negative battery cable from the battery to where it is grounded. Remove the cable and clean it really good. If you don't have one, go to a NAPA store, and purchase a small rotory wire brush which will fit into a cordless drill, and that will make it a lot easier. The solenoid they sold you is no better than the one you had, it's not the correct one, take it back for a refund. The S is for Starter wire connection, and the I is for Ignition which your model does not need. As mentioned in an earlier post, clean all of your battery connections really good, and then spray each terminal with battery protectant, which you can also pick up at NAPA. Good luck, and hope it works for you.
David G.

[subford]

I would guess also that you have the starter relay that you replaced wired wrong.
All of the wires go on with the hot wire from the battery except the small wire that goes on the "S" and the wire to the starter solenoid that is down on the starter. The one you changed was the relay and not the solenoid.



/

[fletch460]

John, take a pair of pliars. Jump across the two large terminals. If the starter spins the solinoid may not be grounded good. Also as someone mentioned, the battery ground cable may be dirty. Scrape any white deposit out of terminal. Or take a wire and jump from the battery + side to the s wire on solinoid. If it starts, could possibly be in ignition switch.

[Old Bounder]

This diagram may be a bit easier to visualize and follow. The sequence of events is to pick the Start Relay from the ignition switch and then the relay will pass 12v on to the starter solenoid, through slightly larger wires. The starter solenoid will then pass 12v to the starter windings through cables and contacts capable of handling the high current required.

As stated previously, make sure the newly installed relay is well grounded to frame ground. Double check your wiring.

[Old Bounder]

It sounds as though you put one of the main wires on the wrong large terminal of the relay. All large wires should go to one terminal and the only wire on the opposite large terminal should go to the starter solenoid.

If the relay still doesn't work correctly, you might try grounding the (I) terminal.

[subford]

NO! never ground the "I" terminal.
That would be a dead short to ground and fire would fly.

[Old Bounder]

Originally Posted by subford

NO! never ground the "I" terminal.
That would be a dead short to ground and fire would fly.

Sorry, you may be right, but that's exactly how they switch a latching disconnect solenoid.

+12v on the "S" terminal and "ground" on the "I" to close it,

+12v on the "I" terminal and "ground" on the "S" to switch it off.

I would measure the continuity between any/all terminals, before I would try it, of course, to see just how the terminal inter-relate.

If neither the S or the I terminal is shorted to the solenoid case, then the I terminal must be tied to ground to pick the coil.

[subford]

The "I" is the same as the cable going to the starter when the "S" has power on it.
The "I" is used for running the fuel pumps while cranking on carb 460 engines and Ignition resister bypass while cranking on some other systems.

There were some solenoids that had two terminal and one was to be grounded and the other made hot to close the solenoid but they were not labeled S & I and were not used on trucks. They were used on mostly electric vehicles.

[Old Bounder]

Originally Posted by subford

The "I" is the same as the cable going to the starter when the "S" has power on it.
The "I" is used for running the fuel pumps while cranking on carb 460 engines and Ignition resister bypass while cranking on some other systems.

There were some solenoids that had two terminal and one was to be grounded and the other made hot to close the solenoid but they were not labeled S & I and were not used on trucks. They were used on mostly electric vehicles.

I appreciate the input, thanks. That will prevent me from handing out erroneous info in the future. The original Ford diagram did show the "I" terminal of the actual starter solenoid going off to the ignition coil. That should have been a clue to me that I didn't understand the theory correctly.

My comment about the use of the "S" and "I" labeled terminals on Intellitec solenoids can be seen on page 13 of this document.

[JohnRR]

Originally Posted by loulong

The original Ford diagram did show the "I" terminal of the actual starter solenoid going off to the ignition coil.

It must have been an old diagram of when points were used in the distributor, back then points ran 6 volts even on 12 volt systems to keep them from burning up prematurely. When you cranked the starter to start "I" would give 12 volts to the points to assist in starting.

[JohnRR]

The diagram may not have been old but it does describe the older Ford system.

Ignition Systems.

In particular (in these systems the wire from "I" ran to + of the coil);
Why do some ignition systems have a ballast fitted where others do not?

Originally, all ignition systems did not have a ballast fitted which meant that the ignition system used a 12v coil with a 12v feed from the battery via the ignition switch. Such a system works fine when an engine is running, but problems can occur when starting the engine. The starter motor draws a huge current from the battery leaving less energy to create a spark across the spark plugs. The result is a weaker than normal spark which is not ideal for starting an engine. This problem is worsened by colder temperatures and/or a worn starter motor which will draw even more energy for starting and leave even less energy for sparking. To overcome such a problem, ignition systems were changed to run a lower voltage coil (usually 9v), and these coils could still give the same output as the original 12v coils. In order to run such a coil, the 12v ignition feed runs through a ballast, reducing it to 9v at the coil. To assist starting, a 12v feed (usually from the starter) bypasses the 9v ignition feed, giving the 9v coil a 12v feed. The result is a better than normal spark which is ideal for starting, particularly on cold damp mornings. As soon as the engine has started, the 12v feed is cut and the coil will run on the 9v ignition feed.

[Old Bounder]

Originally Posted by JohnRR

The diagram may not have been old but it does describe the older Ford system.

In particular (in these systems the wire from "I" ran to + of the coil);
Originally, all ignition systems did not have a ballast fitted which meant that the ignition system used a 12v coil with a 12v feed from the battery via the ignition switch. Such a system works fine when an engine is running, but problems can occur when starting the engine. The starter motor draws a huge current from the battery leaving less energy to create a spark across the spark plugs. The result is a weaker than normal spark which is not ideal for starting an engine. This problem is worsened by colder temperatures and/or a worn starter motor which will draw even more energy for starting and leave even less energy for sparking. To overcome such a problem, ignition systems were changed to run a lower voltage coil (usually 9v), and these coils could still give the same output as the original 12v coils. In order to run such a coil, the 12v ignition feed runs through a ballast, reducing it to 9v at the coil. To assist starting, a 12v feed (usually from the starter) bypasses the 9v ignition feed, giving the 9v coil a 12v feed. The result is a better than normal spark which is ideal for starting, particularly on cold damp mornings. As soon as the engine has started, the 12v feed is cut and the coil will run on the 9v ignition feed.

John, thanks for the education.. I didn't realize that the "S" and "I" designation used by Intellitec on their disconnect and switching solenoids actually had a history in starter relay solenoids. I didn't even question the choice of those designations though I didn't understand why they were chosen.

I'm not sure why they (Intellitec) would continue to use that designation since theirs are not internally wired the way the starter solenoids are. Oh well, live and learn.

So, it's Intellitec's erroneous and continual use of the S and I