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Old 02-06-2016, 09:44 PM   #15
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I sure hope you got the dealer to OK this shop for the repairs and that the dealer is going to pay.
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Old 02-07-2016, 06:21 AM   #16
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Yes, the shop and dealer are communicating and the dealer is accommodating. I just want the problem solved and to know what caused the failure in the first place (although I may never know). Thanks.
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Old 02-07-2016, 07:17 AM   #17
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Believe me the shops are not ones to listen to the owner. they pride themselves on keeping the customer in the dark. It's a Male ego thing I'm convinced. They are the trained ones and you the customer don't have the smarts to question them.

Here's just one example. We had a NEW Honda CRV. It had less than 5,000 miles and we were going to drive it 2,000 miles to ME. My DW drove it no I. My vehicle to get to work was a school bus. About a week before we were leaving she said there's a noise coming from the back right side. I called the dealer and headed down. As soon as I got in I knew it was the rear outer axle hub bearing.

When I spoke to the SW (service writer) I mentioned my background and told him what I thought it was. His response was, "That can't be it they never go bad." I assured him that I did know what I was talking about and I was trying to cut through all the fog so they could get on it ASAP. He again insisted that i didn't know what i was talking about. He even alluded to making a BET which I agreed to. He went to the back and got his best technician and the two of us went for a drive. The tech got in the back seat and i drove. We didn't get out of the lot before he said that it was the right outer axle hub bearing.

We went back and the SW never apologized, or said a single word. He was wrong and wouldn't admit it. No he didn't payup on the bet nor did he last very long at the dealer. With that attitude he couldn't. Think of it this way.

When you go to the doctor what do they do?? They do the vital signs then ask you where it hurts, why are you here, what are the SYMPTOMS???? It's the symptoms that leads the doctor to the part of your body and to do more tests to pinpoint the actual cause. Without the owner (patient) telling the SW why they brought the unit in they have no idea where to search. If they don't do the common sense approach using the symptoms they are just parts changers and not diagnostic techs.

That's just one true story and I could write dozens of them with the same stupid approach and same results. That's part of the reason my approach (post #10) to teaching Automotive Repair became what it was.

TeJay
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Old 02-07-2016, 09:05 AM   #18
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Tejay,
Lot of stuff coming up about a doctors in this thread. There quite a bit of difference between going to a doctor for a problem or getting a rv repaired at a shop other than doing it yourself. That doctor, if hes got to spend time with you going over everything, details, well you are taking up his time he could be out on the golf course & buddy row you are gona pay for that, like 10 hundred billion dollars. Now like a repair shop, well you know across the USA, every one of them are the best you could find from across the world, all certified workers & trained to the fullest, but, you know well as I do, if you aint ever put your hands on it, all you know is what that book told you or what the computer screen showed you. Man pride can cost a lot at times where he knows whats hes doing or not. Ol doc though, hes gona ring you for all your worth & then some. Some repair shops the workers think they are doctors, but you pay them according to how good of a repair they do & you'll find out if they are doctors or not. Was just funny when comparing prices between the two.
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Old 02-07-2016, 09:21 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C-Leigh Racing View Post
Tejay,
Lot of stuff coming up about a doctors in this thread. There quite a bit of difference between going to a doctor for a problem or getting a rv repaired at a shop other than doing it yourself. That doctor, if hes got to spend time with you going over everything, details, well you are taking up his time he could be out on the golf course & buddy row you are gona pay for that, like 10 hundred billion dollars. Now like a repair shop, well you know across the USA, every one of them are the best you could find from across the world, all certified workers & trained to the fullest, but, you know well as I do, if you aint ever put your hands on it, all you know is what that book told you or what the computer screen showed you. Man pride can cost a lot at times where he knows whats hes doing or not. Ol doc though, hes gona ring you for all your worth & then some. Some repair shops the workers think they are doctors, but you pay them according to how good of a repair they do & you'll find out if they are doctors or not. Was just funny when comparing prices between the two.
Neil
Along the same lines when I was a kid one of the local doctors had some repair work done at the local Cadillac dealership. He came back a couple weeks later complaining that he had the same problems again. This time however he lectured the service manager about the previous diagnosis.

The doctor was lamenting that in his business when someone returns for the same problem it was generally due to a misdiagnosis on the previous visit. He was also insinuating that since in his opinion he felt the problem had been misdiagnosed the first time he should be refunded the money he had spent.

The service manager pulled the doctor off to the side and told him of a recent experience he'd had at the doctors office. It seems he had been suffering from stomach pain and had several tests performed at the clinic. When the doctor reviewed the test results he recommended a number of antibiotics and pain killers.

The service manager had the prescriptions filled and went home. That evening he took the medicine as directed and immediately became more ill than before. The next day he went back to the clinic, had more tests done, and was prescribed a different set of medications. This time there were no ill effects and the problem was solved.

The service manager offered to refund the doctor's money for the service the doctor felt was unsatisfactory if in turn the doctor would refund him the money he had spent for his initial visit and medications. Needless to say the conversation ended with no refunds in either direction.
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Old 02-07-2016, 12:53 PM   #20
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I use the comparison with what a doctor does only as a reference to the skills of diagnosis. We are all schooled in what a doctor does in their line of work. We as diagnostic technicians devoted to diagnosis and repair of individuals vehicles must rely on the owner to describe and explain (symptoms) why they felt a need to bring in their vehicle.

If we as technicians do not listen to the owners symptoms and don't perform further testing of systems and parts then we become parts changers. That is not how I want my doctor to fix me nor how I expected my students to diagnose and repair vehicles.

Most times when a vehicle is brought in for REPAIRS (not routine service) it is based on SYMPTOMS of something (part/system) that is acting different than it did before.

The diagnostic steps practiced by a doctor and a good automotive technician are very much the same. We ask questions. When did this problem start? What did it do differently? We verify the complaint. When does it hurt? Tell me when it hurts. We ask for a better description of the symptoms. We evaluate then determine how we can test to further verify the complaint. Maybe an X-Ray is needed. Check for range of motion. Does it happen when it's hot or cold? Now lets run some test to verify my thoughts.

Diagnosis is" prodding, probing, testing, checking, asking questions,measuring what ever we need to measure, etc, etc.

Years ago Chrysler's course completion certificates had at the top this phrase, "Doctor of Motors" Awarded to ________________ for completing the course in _________.

TeJay
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Old 02-07-2016, 01:46 PM   #21
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OK, I have made the effort to educate myself about the front suspension (not an expert by no stretch but learning). Yes, the King Pin bushings are bad and getting replaced. I am looking forward to talking with the garage about the reason they failed and hope no further issues. I DO know how to take care of them from now on, that will help. Thanks for all the help. FYI; Ford has a wonderful hotline 24/7 and they were extremely helpful. feeling good!!!!
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Old 02-07-2016, 06:38 PM   #22
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Daryl,

Good report and news about your repair. This learning is an ongoing process. It just never seems to end. Even when I was still teaching I learned from my students every day. Spending a lot of time on the forums is also a good learning experience. Nobody ever knows it all and there's always room to learn more new and different things. That's what makes it fun and interesting.

Remember you deserve the right to know why a shop is changing a part. It matters not who is paying for it. King pins should last 100,000 miles or more. I'd really want to see those after they came out and how they diagnosed them as being bad. If you want to know it's simple. King pins are exactly like a door hing with a removable hing pin. The hing pin being the king pin. The hing allows movement back and forth but not in or out.

TeJay

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Old 02-08-2016, 08:52 AM   #23
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King pin failure

They will have no idea why your king pins failed. There guess will be no lubrication, but they will have no explanation why.

Your opinion of Ford's 800#, and how helpful they may be, should wait until your problem is actually repaired.

It took me 2 Ford dealers, and 7 weeks to finally get mine repaired. The first one kept it 3 weeks, and gave it back to me driving much WORSE. Second dealer, another 4 weeks, finally it drives correctly. It took a very much needed 4 wheel alignment, King pins, both wheel bearings replaced, along with spindles and nuts. The Ford 800#, nice people, no clue.

Between the Ford dealers, and the THOR Authorized repair shop, where it sits again waiting for Harris batteries to be replaced, we have not been able to use our no longer new coach, even 1 single night, in now, 3 months. Certainly hope your experience is better.
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Old 02-08-2016, 09:47 AM   #24
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Daryl,

The report from post #23 should give you some food for thought. You can see that this journey can be filled with issues, questions and uncertainties. I have read this kind of stuff many, many times. The owners best ammunition is knowledge. Knowledge about what they the dealer are trying to repair. How they are deciding/determining what they are going to replace. Here's one simple example. Even if you have no background in diagnosis or suspension issues.

Walk around your dwelling and find a hinged door that has a knob on the outside and inside. Open the door half way . Now grab the two knobs and gently lift them straight up. The door should not move but if it does the movement is in the worn hinge pins.

That very simple test can be done on any hinged door. I've done that test on hundreds of car doors and found many worn hinges. The exact same test is done on king pins and it will show if there is any king pin (hinge pin) wear.

IMHO any dealer has to and should perform tests on all suspected defective parts for two reasons. To confirm what the symptoms pointed towards and then to show you the owner why they are replacing the parts.

Here's how I look at it. You the owner take a vehicle into a dealer because of symptoms. You explain it to the SW he/she writes it up and tells the technician who then using the service writers report based on your symptoms performs tests.

Once the tests confirm the problem they contact you and say we did some tests and yes you have two bad king pins. And you say SHOW ME!!!! Demonstrate to me why you believe they are bad. That is a reasonable request. If they don't or won't show you I'd simply tell them to put it back together and I'm out of here with no charge.

What LeRoi2 said about them not knowing why they failed it accurate. The hinge pin is worn and so is the hole it rides in. Common Sense!! WHY?? It matters not. Or the metal simply wore away because of no lubrication, or to many miles (usually 100,000 or more). Maybe there was a defective part?? Maybe the king pin was not properly hardened?? That's Ford's fault. Maybe the bronze bushing was to big?? That's Ford's fault. Maybe the king pin was to small?? That's Ford's fault also. Maybe you have 150,000 miles on it?? It's time for new king pins. That's why this is a strange repair.

Maybe we're beating a dead horse. I don't know. What I do know is they are repairing something that should not have to be repaired unless it falls under some of the questions above. It's not on your dime then that's good. I'd still want them to show me why it's bad.

If all the shop technicians are smiling then ignorance truly is bliss.

TeJay
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Old 02-08-2016, 04:18 PM   #25
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SO Sorry still learning!! OK: I have the official problem written out! First, the KingPin is fine, they told me they took grease just fine (yes, all 4 fittings) The problem turns out to be the Leaf Spring Bushings. The mechanic told me the bushings were not holding the front in place (wrong words). So, all 6 leaf spring bushings are being replaced as is the u-bolt holding the front axle to the springs. The entire job, which includes an alignment is being covered by the RV dealer we bought our coach from (everyone has been very good to work with) and we should be good to go after this. Any thoughts please share. The mechanic did not have a clear reason for their wearing out, is this a normal item to go at 19,000 miles?? not crazy expensive (total bill 750.00 inc. alignment).
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Old 02-08-2016, 05:45 PM   #26
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Daryl,

Your RV is a 2013, which means it's a 2012 chassis. There can only be one reason why the leaf spring bushings are bad this soon and that is incorrect or defective bushings. I'd still ask them to actually show you why they think the bushings are bad.

Remember they told you a time ago that the king pins were bad. Now they've changed their tune. Why is that?? AGAIN???? What did they do to change their diagnosis???

Remember the hinge story I told you???? Just because they took grease does not mean they are fine. A worn KP will still take grease. What is so difficult to understand about how a hinge or KP can be tested. Ask them to show you why they now don't think the KP is not bad. A completely shot KP will take grease all day long but if you support the steering knuckle correctly and lift on the tire/wheel it will move up and down like the door showing it's worn.

IMO these guys are a joke and they are still telling you stories.

A leaf spring bushing is simply this. It's like a hot dog bun fitting around a hot dog. The hot dog (leaf spring bolt) is loose if the bun does not fit completely around the hot dog. A pry bar should show you how loose it is. I find it difficult to accept that 8 bushings (that's 2 on each leaf spring for a total of 8) can all be bad unless Ford had a bad batch of bushings. If that were the case then there should be a recall or at least a TSB or (technical service bulletin) issued by Ford to replace bushings for certain years of F-53 chassis.

I guess all you can do is wait until it's done and drive it to see if it helped.

If you want send me a PM with your phone number. I'll talk to you and even talk to your repair facility if you want. I really hate to see people being ripped off and money wasted because of incompetence.

TeJay
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