V-10 Surging No Power - - Help

[jamesrxx951]

If you have not already done so, look up the frame rail for the body builder extending both fuel lines. You may have an easier access point of removing the fuel lines than at the pump. So what you could do is cut the generator line (if you plan on replacement) and remove the EVAP line at the tank and electrical connector and just slide the fuel lines along the frame when lowering the tank. It may ease the tank removal process. They are really not that bad to remove just have to be careful because the tank is heavy. Remember if there is fuel in the tank it will slosh back and forth depending on the low side of the tank when removing it. It will get heavy fast. So securing the tank well to your lowering device will save it from dropping faster than you expected.

[Virago-Rider]

A transmission or motorcycle jack might be helpful.


1998 Thor Windsport 33SL on 1997 F53 chassis.

Sent from my iPad2 using iRV2 - RV Forum

[millwind]

Originally Posted by MrMudstud

While entering the 4 lane today, slowing increasing speed at around 55 MPH, the engine starting surging/bucking. .

Mine (Triton V-10 w/5,000 miles) did the exact same thing at start of last trip & right after putting in about 1/4 tank of gas. It seemed to be getting less & less 'surgy' as we drove on. Finally convinced it was not going away, I pulled over & shut every thing down - checked gas cap, kicked tires & got back in.

Fired it back up & symptom was non-existent (have put on an additional 1,000 miles since & all is good - so far). I chalked it up to a temporary computer glitch. Very glad the OP has solved his problem & now that I've read all these posts, I'm not so sure about my computer excuse.

[MrMudstud]

This week my friends came over and we dropped the fuel tank. Before we lowered the tank, we cut the 1.5” fill up and ¾” vent line near the tank. After removing the hoses, we used a small transfer pump to remove the 42 gallons of fuel and filled up my 2 cars fuel tanks and four 5 gal portable fuel tanks. We used 2 floor jacks using wood supported under on both ends tank brackets. After removing 16 bolts that supported the tank, we slowly lowered the tank keeping it leveled until it was lowered on a flat metal dolly. When it was on the dolly, the 2 fuel lines and electrical harness were disconnected and set aside.

Fleetwood secured the generator fuel line with brackets screwed on the inside of the chassis near the fuel tank, and there was no room to reach it before lowering the tank. I made a 3.5’ long handle with a hack saw blade fastened to one end to cut the rubber hose connection on the genset fuel line near the sending unit before lowering the tank. The fuel line was assembled to the chassis with screws before the house frame was assembled to the ford chassis. There was no way to disconnect the fuel line.

When we rolled out the tank, the 6 bolts that held the sending unit was a little rusty. The bolts was sprayed with WD-40 and let it soak for +/- 10 mins. While it was soaking, I took a small steel brush and cleaned the threads. Using a ratchet and socket, the nuts came right off without any difficulty.

When the sending unit was removed, we were all socked at how much trash/debris that was in the tank. The sock/screen on the unit was completely plugged on the outside. The sock was cut open and there was no visible debris inside but the sock was black with very fine solids embedded on the outside. The fuel tank has baffles throughout the inside and there is no way to see what is in the tank except in the center where the sending unit fits.

We decided to rock the tank by picking it up end to end 2 times on each side. Leaving the tank standing up on its end we used the transfer pump to sucked out the fuel that was left. We sucked about 6 gals, and about the last 1.5 gallons there was about ¾ gal of black fine trash. We used a paint screen filter and filtered the fuel while funneling it back in the tank. Then we rock it end to end another 2 times and sucked out the fuel again. This time it was much better but the last gal still had some trash. We filtered it and rocked it the 3rd time. When we sucked out the fuel, it had even less than before so we figured we got all we could get. There is about ½ gal left in the tank when the pump loses prime. The last time, we turned the tank over and poured out all the fuel through the sending unit opening. There was still trash that came out, but it was very little. I was very hesitant to use water to thoroughly clean it out. So using water was abandoned for that reason.

We assembled a new sending unit and bolted it down. Then dollied the tank under the motorhome and connected the fuel lines and electrical harness. Slowly raised the tank with the 2 floor jacks and eased up between the chassis and bolted all down. I bought new rubber hoses for the fill up and vent lines and connected all together.

Side note: The sending unit has 3 fuel lines connections, one feeding the engine, one return and one for the genset. This tank has a built in genset line that reaches down to ¼ level in the tank the same length as the sending unit. I decided to run a fuel line connected to an external 12 V fuel pump with a ball valve. I will run it to one of my outside storage units so I can use it to pump fuel. I plan to use it when I don’t use my motorhome often, to use some of the fuel in my personal autos so I can add fresh fuel to the motorhome. This way if my fuel gets too old, I can changed it out easily.

After it was all connected together and checked over, I turn the ignition on for 30 sec to prime my fuel line and started it right up. It ran smoothly. After cleaning up the garage and saving the tools, I went to the fuel station and filled up the tank with 66 gallons. When I installed the tank, I added 18/20 gallons of my recycled gas and that comes to +/- 85 gallons. My ford chassis specs states it has a 75 gallon tank. Now, that must mean I have 75 gallons actual usage and not total capacity. When I first started it up after adding the 18/20 gallons of fuel, the fuel gauge was reading less than 1/8 or very close to E on the gauge. I thought that was unusual since I just added the 18/20 gallons.

After leaving the gas station, I turned off on the 4 lane highway and hit the accelerator WOT and I could see dark smoke cloud from the rear moving forward to the front of the motorhome. The front end raised one foot off the road doing a wheelie while the tack hitting 5500 RPM’s at over 45 MPH…………then I woke up with my wife slapping me yelling it is green light lets go…………. I just realize I was dreaming on…………OK OK OK, I’m back to realization.

When I left the gas station I took it on the highway and it ran well, reaching 75 MPH with no problem or hesitation. Before the change out, I had problems getting to 60 MPH before it started leveling out due to fuel starvation. I believe I got it now, time to go camping. Cost breakdown, $108 for trouble shooting $252 for sending unit, $31 for hoses and I gave my 2 friends $150 each for their assistance. Total Cost $691.

[aauummm]

Thanks for the update! Hope that never happens to me!

[MrMudstud]

We made a trip of 250 miles and the motorhome started acting the same, fuel starvation. I limped home at 45 MPH. The next day I checked the fuel PSI at 50 MPH and it dropped down to 16 PSI. So, I am back to square one.

Two days later dropped the fuel tank again, after pumping out 32 gallons of gas with my auxiliary pump. The sock on the fuel pump was plugged. I notice there wasn’t a lot of fine solids floating around, but if you would pass your finger on the back side of the baffle’s there was some solids adhering to the sides. I needed to figure out how to get a good washout without being able to see the whole tank with all the baffle’s inside.

I dumped the rest of the fuel and filled the tank up with water. After sloshing the water around, we turned the tank upside down al let the water drain. Then added 5 gallons of diesel and sloshed it around back and forth. Pumped it out with an electric pump I rigged up with water hoses. It took us one whole roll of blue shop paper towels wiping the bottom and sides where the sending unit fits. I would put about 6 paper towels on the bottom of the tank and pick up the tank end to end so absorb all the diesel and liquid that we could. Keep in mind, the tank is about 6’ long by 30” wide and 14-16” deep. The opening of the tank that you can actually can see and wipe up where the sending goes is 30” by 14-16” by 20”. That’s it. There must be about 3 baffles on both sides of the opening that goes completely across the tank. It has a few holes of 2.5” around the baffles to let the fuel equalize. So you just can’t go in and clean up the tank easily.

After getting it dried up as much as possible, we started putting it back together. This time I removed the sock on the end of the sending unit that goes on the end of the pump. Now I have a clear suction to the pump. It is a big job dropping the tank and I have enough of that. So, I will let the inline fuel filter catch the solids/trash. It is a lot easier to change the inline filter than dropping the tank. If the pump burns out due to no sock, it is the same work to change it out as changing the sock. Besides, the suction intake of the fuel pump is the size of a pencil and I doubt that will plug up. I will have to change out the inline filter often until there is no indication of trash in the filter when I cut the old one open when changing.

After putting it all back together I poured in 15 gallons of fuel. Cranked it right up with no problems. Took it down the road and added 30 more fresh gallons of gas and the gauge was about half full. We are close to a 4 lane, so I drove it about 15 miles at 70 MPH. She ran like a clock.

This is my story and I’m sticking to it. I will keep you informed if anything else changes.

[Sweetbriar]

Great write up. These rolling boxes may appear complicated but the chassis is no different than your daily driver, just scaled up a bit.

One off item a bit off topic I noticed was your Scan Gauge transmission temp seemed pretty high. I also use a Scan Gauge to monitor both cylinder head temp and transmission and I have yet to see my transmission about 170 degrees. I can't recall the transmission ever higher than the engine. It could be since I have the newer engine the temp sensor might be after the cooler and yours is before. jamesrxx951 might have an answer on that one.

[chboone]

It would be nice to see input from jamesxxx951. However, he hasn't made any posts since 10/21/2014. Hope everything is fine with James.

[millwind]

Originally Posted by Sweetbriar

Great write up.

One off item a bit off topic I noticed was your Scan Gauge transmission temp seemed pretty high.

I can't recall the transmission ever higher than the engine. It could be since I have the newer engine the temp sensor might be after the cooler and yours is before. jamesrxx951 might have an answer on that one.

Yes, great input here!
If I may, another item a bit off topic: I have an OEM trans temp gauge reflecting a heat build-up during a cold start & at idle sooner and at a greater rate of climb than the OEM engine heat gauge (understanding that these are "idiot gauges" at best). They both eventually reach the 'normal' range. Are my sensors installed in reverse, or is this normal?

And my 'surging' problem has not arisen again since my 1st reporting it & we've put another 4,000 miles on the rig - so far so good

Thanks in advance for any input!

[ga traveler]

Great write up. It is better when a owner does his own repair. He usually will NOT cut corners and always saves money. I believe what you found in the tank were fine grains of rust. This can be determined by using a magnet to attract it. The only problem with removing the sock is the manufacturer puts it there to protect the pump. If the pump has vanes with springs behind them, the rust will work into the vanes and they will stick and the pump will stop working. I have run into this with Fleetwood products not having a filter before the pump on Onan generators. After replacing dozens of fuel pumps on gas generators on Fleetwood products, I researched and found that Onan called for a inline filter before the fuel pump. Fleetwood was not using one. I started removing the pumps, disassembling them. cleaning the vanes, reassembling them, and installing the filter. This cured the problem.

[MrMudstud]

[QUOTE=ga traveler] I believe what you found in the tank were fine grains of rust.QUOTE]

ga traveler, I believe you hit on something and solve the problem. I went in my shop and rubbed a strong magnet on both sides of the sock. Lord and behold, it was full of very very fine black dust sticking to the magnet. I knocked the particle's off on top of my shop vice, and brought the magnet closer and the dust stuck to the magnet. I would have never thought it was metal as it was black and very fine. Shows you what I know, uh.

Now the question, How in the heck do I remove ALL the fine particle's from the tank with all the 6 baffle's in the way? It stopped up 2 socks so far, and putting another one will just do the same. I'm in a pickle.


What do you think if I put a strong magnet on the bottom of the tank about +/- 6" from the suction of the fuel pump? At least that will gather the rust and keep it in one spot.
Will the magnet hinder the electric fuel pump?
What are my other options?

[chboone]

If you have anymore trouble with the tank and instead of buying a new tank you may want to try this. https://www.por15.com/mobile/POR-15-...-Kit_p_62.html
Doesn't say what size tank the kit is for, probably would need at least two kits. Have never used the product, it's been around for several years. Their original target was Classic and Antique auto's.

[ga traveler]

[QUOTE=MrMudstud;2359518]

Originally Posted by ga traveler

I believe what you found in the tank were fine grains of rust.QUOTE]

ga traveler, I believe you hit on something and solve the problem. I went in my shop and rubbed a strong magnet on both sides of the sock. Lord and behold, it was full of very very fine black dust sticking to the magnet. I knocked the particle's off on top of my shop vice, and brought the magnet closer and the dust stuck to the magnet. I would have never thought it was metal as it was black and very fine. Shows you what I know, uh.

Now the question, How in the heck do I remove ALL the fine particle's from the tank with all the 6 baffle's in the way? It stopped up 2 socks so far, and putting another one will just do the same. I'm in a pickle.


What do you think if I put a strong magnet on the bottom of the tank about +/- 6" from the suction of the fuel pump? At least that will gather the rust and keep it in one spot.
Will the magnet hinder the electric fuel pump?
What are my other options?

Some of the tool company's sell super magnets. You might buy a couple of these and stick them to the tank. Some will say the sloshing of the fuel will wash the matter loose, but I have seen magnets in oil pans that held the particals in place with all the turbulance of the oil pan.

[Dave9]

Did you check the spark plug wires?