Warranty Issue

[lrover]

First post .
We just purchased a new 2015 Thor ACE 29.2. I have a 5 Star tune that was on my previous MH (05 Itasca Spirit) and I was very pleased with it. I know I can get the tune up-date for the 2015. My question is has any one had any warranty issues after installing the 5 Star or any other tune on a new, under factory warranty, Ford chassis?
Thanks in advance

[JC2]

Originally Posted by lrover

First post .
We just purchased a new 2015 Thor ACE 29.2. I have a 5 Star tune that was on my previous MH (05 Itasca Spirit) and I was very pleased with it. I know I can get the tune up-date for the 2015. My question is has any one had any warranty issues after installing the 5 Star or any other tune on a new, under factory warranty, Ford chassis?
Thanks in advance

What your probably going to find out is that "if" you install any 3rd party item and the manufacture can prove that it caused a problem while the rv was under warranty, they may very well void your warranty. With that said, I don't believe that they can void your warranty if you install the 5 Star Tune kit and have no problems. Clear as mud isn't it?

[krivanj]

Call 5 Star and find out, but I am pretty sure it will void any engine warranty. Some people pop them in and out when they go for service.

[bailiff]

Originally Posted by krivanj

Call 5 Star and find out, but I am pretty sure it will void any engine warranty. Some people pop them in and out when they go for service.

My local Ford Mechanic told me they found many chips, programs on vehicles brought in for warranty repairs. He said since 2010, the ECM would show a code of any program enhancement even if the program/chip was removed.

[cb1000rider]

I have a friend with a Corvette. It had catastrophic engine failure (rod bearing) and they wouldn't warranty due to a "custom tune".

Basically, if it can be attributed as root cause, they can use it. The tune isn't going to be used as a cause to deny a driveline warranty, but could be used for something related. You could argue it - there are laws that say manufacturers have to show cause...

Net/net - these tunes are common and well liked, I wouldn't worry about it.

[Mark Kovalsky]

It's EASY to show cause. The PCM can detect when the engine is making more power than it should. Once that happens the warranty can be voided on the engine, transmission, and rear axle.

If yours is voided and you think you were wronged, you can take the manufacturer to court. They have the proof, the lawyers, and MUCH more money than any of us. I'm sure you can do the math on your chances of winning this contest.

[Lostdog]

Also, if your previous coach was an '05 then the chassis could be an '04 with the 2 valve engine. Your new rig will be the 3 valve engine and different transmission so I would recommend that you drive it for awhile to see if you really need the 5 Star Tune. I realized it was not needed for our rig.

[dragvw2180]

If you can remove it before a warranty service call I would, then purchase a code reader with the capability to erase codes. Remove it and erase the memory before any service calls. The only way anyone at a dealership would read any codes is if you had a problem related to one of the onboard computer systems , having said that nowadays everything is computer related including some of the radioes . Make sure before you go in that you operate the effected circuit long enough to reduplicate the problem so if it generates a code your tech can hopefully solve your problem.

[cb1000rider]

Originally Posted by Mark Kovalsky

It's EASY to show cause. The PCM can detect when the engine is making more power than it should. Once that happens the warranty can be voided on the engine, transmission, and rear axle.

Mark, respectfully - how does the PCM measure power? It'll measure a lot of things, but measuring power implies knowing weight and a bunch of other parameters.

Yes, Ford can tell that it's altered, but I'd ask the 5-star guys how many clients they've had warranty issues with. Mixuture issues? I'd understand.. Blowing a rear end due to a PCM tune and no other mods? That'd be a tough claim to prove...

[Mark Kovalsky]

Originally Posted by cb1000rider

Mark, respectfully - how does the PCM measure power? It'll measure a lot of things, but measuring power implies knowing weight and a bunch of other parameters.

No, it does not. There are ways to tell that an engine is making more power than stock. It cannot determine how much power is being made, just that it is more than stock. I'm not going to share the means here, and because of that several people won't believe me. That's fine. I know it can be done, because I understand how the engine/torque converter/trans/software work together. You can either believe that it can be done, or not. The choice is yours.

[Mark Kovalsky]

Originally Posted by dragvw2180

If you can remove it before a warranty service call I would, then purchase a code reader with the capability to erase codes. Remove it and erase the memory before any service calls. The only way anyone at a dealership would read any codes is if you had a problem related to one of the onboard computer systems , having said that nowadays everything is computer related including some of the radioes . Make sure before you go in that you operate the effected circuit long enough to reduplicate the problem so if it generates a code your tech can hopefully solve your problem.

Erasing codes before getting it serviced seems like a bad idea to me. First, you are removing the data that the tech needs to solve the problem. Second, if your intention is to remove the codes that indicate that a tuner was in place you can't do that. These codes are stored where a code reader can't get to them, and they are non-volitol. They will stay in their hidden location after clearing codes AND after removing power from the vehicle.

As for the dealer only reading codes if the on-board computers are part of the problem, no that isn't right. If the dealer is doing his job correctly any time they work on anything more than an oil change the first step is to read the codes. Codes are read on almost all vehicles that come in for service.

[cb1000rider]

Mark, I'm saying that I don't believe you.. I'm asking you to clarify how. I'm no Ford engineer, but I understand how the tuning works and I understand (at least in a few specific cases) what gets logged.

If you asked me how I'd do it, I'd watch injector duty cycle at peak power output... But no Ford dealer is going to do that.
For instance, if we say that injector duty cycle was going above 80% - we might conclude that we're making "more power" than stock. Is that the kind of thing you're thinking about?

Yes, I like to know the how..

I don't know that "making more power" voids warranties in the face of Magnunson-Moss. I believe the act requires that they show direct cause.

For instance, adding a cold air intake likely provides a proven power increase. So would a set of Banks headers. Ford can't deny a driveline warranty based on the presence of either.. At least not legally without showing direct cause.

I haven't seen any cases of driveline warranties being invalidated due to custom tunes, but I see how some might try - especially if the tune influences shift points.

[jamesrxx951]

Originally Posted by cb1000rider

Mark, I'm saying that I don't believe you.. I'm asking you to clarify how. I'm no Ford engineer, but I understand how the tuning works and I understand (at least in a few specific cases) what gets logged.

If you asked me how I'd do it, I'd watch injector duty cycle at peak power output... But no Ford dealer is going to do that.
For instance, if we say that injector duty cycle was going above 80% - we might conclude that we're making "more power" than stock. Is that the kind of thing you're thinking about?

Yes, I like to know the how..

I don't know that "making more power" voids warranties in the face of Magnunson-Moss. I believe the act requires that they show direct cause.

For instance, adding a cold air intake likely provides a proven power increase. So would a set of Banks headers. Ford can't deny a driveline warranty based on the presence of either.. At least not legally without showing direct cause.

I haven't seen any cases of driveline warranties being invalidated due to custom tunes, but I see how some might try - especially if the tune influences shift points.

That is the issue with voiding warranty. The dealer/Ford typically has to be able to prove that what ever was added was the root cause of the failure. However Ford already has documented proof on what are indicators of failures caused by power adders. When it comes to transmission failures or other minor drivetrain failures it is usually not worth fighting over. However when it comes to engine failures, that is a different story. If there is a suspect that the power adder caused the failure, signs of a power adder, or appearant abuse, there will likely be a battle. Plus in the warranty guide is does point out what voids the warranty.

Damage Caused by Alteration or Modification

The New Vehicle Limited Warranty does not cover any damage caused by:

•

alterations or modifications of the vehicle, including the body, chassis,

or components, after the vehicle leaves the control of Ford Motor

Company

•

tampering with the vehicle, tampering with the emissions systems or

with the other parts that affect these systems (for example, but not

limited to exhaust and intake systems)

•

the installation or use of a non-Ford Motor Company part (other than

a certified emissions part) or any part (Ford or non-Ford) designed

for off-road use only installed after the vehicle leaves the control of

Ford Motor Company, if the installed part fails or causes a Ford part

to fail. Examples include, but are not limited to lift kits, oversized

tires, roll bars, cellular phones, alarm systems, automatic starting

systems and performance-enhancing powertrain components or

software and performance ‘‘chips’’

For instance there was a rash of 5.0L Mustang engine failures and it was always the same type of and cylinder failure. Aftermarket calibrations was detected and thus the warranty was voided on those. Ford actually did some research to further figure out why the power adder was causing the failures. It was due to the programming that the aftermarket company was doing. That programmer was contacted by a Ford rep and informed them of the issue. Not typical but sometimes it happens.

[Mark Kovalsky]

Originally Posted by cb1000rider

Mark, I'm saying that I don't believe you.. I'm asking you to clarify how. I'm no Ford engineer, but I understand how the tuning works and I understand (at least in a few specific cases) what gets logged.

It's OK that you don't believe me. I've chosen to not clarify how it works.

Originally Posted by cb1000rider

If you asked me how I'd do it, I'd watch injector duty cycle at peak power output... But no Ford dealer is going to do that.

That wouldn't be a reliable method to determine if the power was above stock. The dealer doesn't have to do any data logging. The PCM will set a code where a standard tool can't find it. All the dealer has to do is use the dealer only tool and read the codes.

Originally Posted by cb1000rider

I don't know that "making more power" voids warranties in the face of Magnunson-Moss. I believe the act requires that they show direct cause.

I believe that installing aftermarket parts that do not meet the OEM's specifications can and will void the warranty.

Originally Posted by cb1000rider

For instance, adding a cold air intake likely provides a proven power increase. So would a set of Banks headers. Ford can't deny a driveline warranty based on the presence of either.. At least not legally without showing direct cause.

I don't agree with you. Why would adding power NOT void the warranty? The drive line was designed to live with the stock power. If you add power and something breaks I don't see that as the manufacturer's problem. The warranty is there to protect for defects. Failures because there is more power than stock isn't a defect, it's operator error. That should not be covered by warranty.

Originally Posted by cb1000rider

I haven't seen any cases of driveline warranties being invalidated due to custom tunes, but I see how some might try - especially if the tune influences shift points.

I have.