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Old 05-14-2019, 04:41 AM   #1
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Front brake drum, seals, bearings, etc.

We have a 2006 Diplomat with a Dana E1200W front axle. When I go to the Dana website I only find information on the axle, tie rods and spindles. Where do you find information on the brakes, brake drums, slack adjusters, bearings, seals, etc ?

Thanks
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Old 05-16-2019, 06:00 AM   #2
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Quote:
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We have a 2006 Diplomat with a Dana E1200W front axle. When I go to the Dana website I only find information on the axle, tie rods and spindles. Where do you find information on the brakes, brake drums, slack adjusters, bearings, seals, etc ?

Thanks
Two days and no response. That surprises me but guess no one here has any experience with brakes, seals, wheel bearings, slack adjusters, etc.

Bob
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Old 05-16-2019, 07:16 AM   #3
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When looking for bearings, seals, and brake parts - you need to know what "Wheel End" (Hub) you have. The Axle number itself is of no use.

If the wheel is off there is a part number stamped on the Wheel End assembly.
However most of our coaches are using the same axles/wheel ends (varying some by weight capacity).

You should be able to find info on the brake assemblies and related parts once you get the wheel end numbers. It sounds from your post like you have "drum brakes" on the front rather than disc brakes.

My front axle (E-1462) is in the same family as yours, so this list may help. However my coach has disc brakes (Bendix ESD-225) so my info on that wont help you.
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Old 05-17-2019, 05:09 AM   #4
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When looking for bearings, seals, and brake parts - you need to know what "Wheel End" (Hub) you have. The Axle number itself is of no use.

If the wheel is off there is a part number stamped on the Wheel End assembly.
However most of our coaches are using the same axles/wheel ends (varying some by weight capacity).

You should be able to find info on the brake assemblies and related parts once you get the wheel end numbers. It sounds from your post like you have "drum brakes" on the front rather than disc brakes.

My front axle (E-1462) is in the same family as yours, so this list may help. However my coach has disc brakes (Bendix ESD-225) so my info on that wont help you.
Thanks Mike, that is a big help. Yes we have the drum brakes and have the right front wheel off. I called my friend Van Williams yesterday and he indicated the drum should come off without removing the hub and it may be rusted to the hub. May need to encourage it a little. We are experiencing the common problem of frozen rollers that engage the brake shoes via the S-cam. We have plenty of thickness left on the brake shoes but need to fix the rollers. The largest socket we had on hand was 2 inches and the hub nut is 2-1/4 inches. Good thing we had not yet loosened the nut because Van indicated that the end play must be set correctly on the hub or the Timken bearings will overheat and fail rapidly. We do have the equipment to do that but if it ant broke don't fix it. To keep me from doing something stupid was the reason we were seeking information on the drum, brakes, and hub.

Again thanks for your reply,

Bob
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:34 AM   #5
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Glad your getting this sorted out.

I have not ever seen rollers seize up. More commonly the S-cam bushings seize. Note that when you pull the S-Cams out to replace the bushings, sometimes they are specific to the right and left side of coach, so don't mix them up.

The drum will slide off over the hub studs. Don't be afraid to give a wack on the drum with a sledge hammer between the studs (where it sits against the hub). Do not ever hit the side of the drum. Use a 2x4 of such if your aim is not so good (you don't want to hit the studs of course) but something solid is better than a 2x as you want the shock of the hit to break the rust/drum free.

As you noted, you don't need to take the hub off - so no need to remove the bearing adjustment nuts - unless you wanted to inspect and repack the bearings.
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Old 05-18-2019, 06:14 AM   #6
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Glad your getting this sorted out.

I have not ever seen rollers seize up. More commonly the S-cam bushings seize. Note that when you pull the S-Cams out to replace the bushings, sometimes they are specific to the right and left side of coach, so don't mix them up.

The drum will slide off over the hub studs. Don't be afraid to give a wack on the drum with a sledge hammer between the studs (where it sits against the hub). Do not ever hit the side of the drum. Use a 2x4 of such if your aim is not so good (you don't want to hit the studs of course) but something solid is better than a 2x as you want the shock of the hit to break the rust/drum free.

As you noted, you don't need to take the hub off - so no need to remove the bearing adjustment nuts - unless you wanted to inspect and repack the bearings.
Thanks for the tip Mike. I will only be doing one side at a time so should not have a problem mixing the bushings. Got the brake drum off yesterday and took some photos. Sent a few to Van and then we talked on the phone. He suggested that the seals on the S-cam shaft may look like the one on the outside near the slack adjuster is installed wrong but it is done that way so if we get happy with the grease gun it will ooze on that end and not into the brake shoe area. After looking at the photos Van also thought I might have a binding S-cam shaft. He suggested tearing everything down and cleaning out the old grease and going back with the recommended grease for slack adjusters. Mentioned he keeps a separate grease gun for the slack adjusters. Guess I will do that also. I am sure the times that I had SpeedCo do a lube they just used the same grease on everything. The slack adjusters may be part of my problem because the drum cam off without loosening the brake shoes. Before the start of each trip I pump the brakes hard with the parking brake off but that only works if the slack adjusters are ratcheting correctly.

Now to get that mean spring off so the brake shoes can be removed.

Bob
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Old 05-18-2019, 06:44 AM   #7
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Pry up the shoes and pop out the rollers. Then the spring come off with your fingers.

Then spread the shoes to open them, to slip them off the fixed anchor.

No fighting with springs.
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Old 05-18-2019, 06:59 AM   #8
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Its recomended that you only grease the shoe and grove in the roller, not the S cam or the part of the roller that touch's it.

Grease there will collect dirt and create a chock between the roller and S cam. Then the roller slides, causing flat spots.

S cam bushing should be greased until grease comes out between the slack adjuster and tube. If not done that way, the bushings dry out and cause sticking S cam shafts.

The double seals near the brake end of the tube should stop the grease from getting to the brakes. If grease get there, its because the bushings and seals are already bad.

Stepping on the brakes doesn't force an adjustment unless they move enough to ratchet the adjuster.
If the adjuster ratchets, they adjust when you let your foot off the brake pedal. That happens every time you take your foot off the brake. 1" of travel is acceptable and may be enough to slip the drum off, if not badly worn.
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Old 05-18-2019, 07:55 AM   #9
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Like Twinboat said, its easy to remove the springs once you spread the shoes (pry bar) and pull out the rollers.
With the shoes out of the way, remove the clevis pin on the brake chamber push rod to slack adjuster so you can move the slack adjuster (and therefore S-Cam) by hand. if it doesn't rotate freely, you'll need a bushing kit (and maybe new S-Cams depending on how they have worn at the bushing areas).

here's a video on the process (not the best mechanic but still useful to watch)
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Old 05-18-2019, 09:47 AM   #10
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Like Twinboat said, its easy to remove the springs once you spread the shoes (pry bar) and pull out the rollers.
With the shoes out of the way, remove the clevis pin on the brake chamber push rod to slack adjuster so you can move the slack adjuster (and therefore S-Cam) by hand. if it doesn't rotate freely, you'll need a bushing kit (and maybe new S-Cams depending on how they have worn at the bushing areas).

here's a video on the process (not the best mechanic but still useful to watch)
Hi Mike and Twinboat,

I watched that video this morning before going out to work on removing the shoes. My neighbor across the street is a heavy equipment mechanic and I ask him to come over and take a look. He told me the same thing the both of you said about removing the small spring and spreading the shoes to get the large spring off. I did that and have the shoes off. Neighbor said the shoes were at least half worn because the roller should be sitting in the valley of the S-cam for new shoes. So following that lead I took a close look and it appears the rollers were sitting on the high spot of the S-cam. Since the only adjustment I can see for the brakes is where the roller rides on the S-cam I plan to replace the shoes. When I told the neighbor that the drum came off without backing off on the S-cam he said that was not a good sign. He did inspect the drum and said it looked good. The S-cam seems to be free because I rotated it 360 degrees with the adjustment on the slack adjuster. I am now of the opinion that my main problem is worn shoes. Neighbor said most likely the rear would be worn more than the front so guess that is next.

Bob
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:59 AM   #11
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Well, it's hard to argue with the diagnosis when I'm not there to see everything first hand, but from the photos those brake shoes do not look worn out.

If the problem is poor front braking, then I think your issue is likely that the automatic slack adjusters are not "adjusting automatically".

See this data sheet on Slack Adjusters - and hopefully figure out if yours is working/adjusted properly.
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File Type: pdf Bedix Slack Adjuster Data Sheet.pdf (707.3 KB, 2 views)
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Old 05-18-2019, 02:42 PM   #12
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If the shoes and or drum were worn badly, the roller would be running up the S cam, into the area I marked.

Did you advance the slack adjuster before you took the pictures ? I don't see the area where the roller was making contact.

But I'm not there, so do what you feel is best.Click image for larger version

Name:	Capture%2B_2019-05-18-16-38-40.jpeg
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Old Yesterday, 05:07 AM   #13
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Quote:
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Well, it's hard to argue with the diagnosis when I'm not there to see everything first hand, but from the photos those brake shoes do not look worn out.

If the problem is poor front braking, then I think your issue is likely that the automatic slack adjusters are not "adjusting automatically".

See this data sheet on Slack Adjusters - and hopefully figure out if yours is working/adjusted properly.
Thanks for the PDF Mike. I will check the slack adjuster and that very well could be the problem since the drum came off without backing off on the slack adjuster.

I am having trouble visualizing how the slack adjuster could adjust the brake shoes once the roller is at the high spot on the S-cam. Seems like if the slack adjuster keeps rotating the S-cam after the roller reaches the high spot the brake shoes will actually back away from the drum.

Bob
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Old Yesterday, 05:17 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinboat View Post
If the shoes and or drum were worn badly, the roller would be running up the S cam, into the area I marked.

Did you advance the slack adjuster before you took the pictures ? I don't see the area where the roller was making contact.

But I'm not there, so do what you feel is best.Attachment 246425
Twinboat,

Seems to me that if the roller is allowed to advance down the back side of the S-cam after reaching the high spot the shoes will not adjust out to the drum but will start to back away from the drum. I am learning here so clue me in. I will attach a photo that shoes where the rollers were sitting on the S-cam. It looks like there is only about 0.020" of adjustment left on the S-cam before the roller starts down the minus slope of the cam.

Bob
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