Community Forums

timjet · 04-19-2017, 07:43 PM

American Tradition, Spartan chassis, side radiator. This chassis has a stacked radiator design where the charged air cooler radiator, engine cooling radiator, hydraulic cooling radiator and air conditioner condenser are stacked one on top of the other.

The dash air conditioning shop determined I needed to replace the condenser so instead of replacing and using the spartan designed condenser they used an off the shelf condenser and attached it to the existing stacked radiator assembly. They attached the off the shelf condenser in front (on the other side than the fan is on) of the stacked assembly as shown in the pictures below. The off the shelf condenser covers about 50% of the charged air cooler radiator and about the same amount of the engine cooling radiator. They left the defective OEM Spartan condenser in place and rerouted the Freon lines to accommodate the new condenser.

My concern is the AC shop has altered the cooling design of the stacked radiator assembly by placing the new condenser in back of the stacked assembly (other side of the fan) and have potentially reduced the airflow through the stacked radiator assembly. There is about an inch between the new condenser and the existing stacked assembly.
What say you.

Ray,IN · 04-19-2017, 08:23 PM

The shop was probably trying to save you money. To remove, disassemble, repair/replace existing condenser coil, then re-assemble everything would likely be near $3,000. This will probably cause the cooling fan to run on high more frequently and longer periods.
FWIW, my cooling pack has 2 electric fans on the exterior side in addition to the hydraulically-driven fan.

TR4 · 04-19-2017, 08:50 PM

Are you saying they left the old condenser in the stack? If so, I agree with Ray,IN, your cooling will suffer. I don't know where in the stack the old condenser is located, but it could cost a lot to remove it. My condenser is installed like your new one. I wish I had the room to install electric fans for the A/C condenser.

Bill

FIRE UP · 04-19-2017, 09:35 PM

Tim,
I surely don't profess to know that much about these sort of things but, I've never been a fan of "stacking" those systems. Even in the front of a regular vehicle, like our Jeep, there's quite a bit of "Stacking". In line is: My radiator, A/C condenser. engine oil cooler and power steering cooler.

Now, just like yours, the radiator suffer's because it's receiving heat from other units. It has to get rid of it's own heat much less take on heat from stacked units in front of it. As for yours, I suspect that what Ray said might be a correct analysis. However, if it were mine, and I had to pay for that service/repair, I think I'd have some words with the supervisor concerning that situation.

The main problem is, you can't put louvers all around the coaches perimeter simply to segregate all the components that need air cooling. Ain't happening. So, they design it, STACKED. Now, to add one more and, have a "dead one" in the middle, to me, not a good idea. All those systems are working hard enough WITHOUT adding a dead condenser to slow the flow of the air and do nothing in return. Not sure what the best situation is here. I just know I wouldn't like it done that way.
Scott

timjet · 04-20-2017, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray,IN

The shop was probably trying to save you money.

Yes that's what they claim. I just wish they had told me that was their intention before they installed it. I would never have approved the install.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TR4

Are you saying they left the old condenser in the stack?
Bill

Yes they did. It's hard to see from the pictures but the condenser is the bottom most radiator in the stack and the most poorly ventilated. Actually the condenser is partially covered completely by a metal covering near the rear further reducing ventilation. The new install is much more efficient from a ventilation stand point for the air cond.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FIRE UP

Tim,
I surely don't profess to know that much about these sort of things... However, if it were mine, and I had to pay for that service/repair, I think I'd have some words with the supervisor concerning that situation.

Not sure what the best situation is here. I just know I wouldn't like it done that way.
Scott

Agreed Scott, I'm no expert and as soon as I saw the install I questioned the guy that did it about the cooling efficiency for the units the condenser is installed in front of. He said he was a cooling expert and it was OK. I reminded him I'm not worried about the AC cooling but am very concerned about the engine cooling. So I called Spartan and they said (phone was on speaker and installer was listening) that the cooling system design is appropriate for the coach as originally designed, but when the cooling system is changed they will offer no opinion as to the ability of the cooling system to properly cool. My concern is the engine and inter cooler efficiency when running up a 8% grade at 10,000 ft.

I've ordered the OEM condenser from Spartan and will have it installed and the off the shelf condenser removed. Just not sure who I will have do the work. Yes, it's going to be expensive, but a engine cooling failure would probably be much more expensive.

TR4 · 04-20-2017, 08:06 AM

So in the picture, the bottom section, below the row of bolts is the condenser? If it is, I wouldn't waste my money on a new OEM. Looks like a poor design and not very efficient.

I would save your money on the new OEM and put it toward taking out the old one. I think it will be cheaper and you'll end up with a more efficient A/C.

Bill

timjet · 04-20-2017, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TR4

So in the picture, the bottom section, below the row of bolts is the condenser? If it is, I wouldn't waste my money on a new OEM. Looks like a poor design and not very efficient.

I would save your money on the new OEM and put it toward taking out the old one. I think it will be cheaper and you'll end up with a more efficient A/C.

Bill

Yes the bottom most radiator is the condenser and I agree that it appears not to be very efficient. But your comment does not address my concern about the off the shelf condenser blocking air flow around the engine and intercooler radiator.

timjet · 04-22-2017, 05:49 AM

Forums are great when in need of opinions.

I'm going to leave the off the shelf condenser in place and also leave the OEM now dead condenser in place as well. The OEM condenser got the least air flow in the stack and being on the bottom probably didn't heat transfer much heat to the other radiators located above it. With this new condenser in front of the CAC and engine coolant radiator my concern was proper air flow for those radiators and the heat generated by the new condenser.
However the cost to replace the OEM condenser is going to be considerable. It may also require the removal of the complete radiator stack requiring the removal of all of the sealant. I'm concerning disturbing all this may lead to other problems.

So I'm going to ask the dash air shop to position the new condenser from it's current spacing of 1" from the current stack to 3". This serves 2 purposes, allowing for more air flow around the CAC & engine radiators and reducing the heat generated by the new condenser around the existing stack.

I'm going to watch the coolant temp carefully, I've not noticed any increase with the limited driving so far. I may also install a by-pass switch to turn on the fan before reaching that 8% grade. I have no idea how to do this or if there is a downside.

OldHatt45 · 04-23-2017, 06:24 AM

Tim,
I'm not 100% sure, but, I remember reading somewhere on the forum that the Fan is controlled by the ECU and is a multi-speed affair. Installing a bypass switch may or may not be the answer. Also, I remember reading that the fan is hydraulic so be careful. I don't know what research you've done, but this is an area that needs thorough research to be sure you are not creating a bigger problem.

Drew
2003 Travel Supreme - 40DS02

timjet · 04-23-2017, 09:17 AM

Thanks Drew, you're right best leave the fan alone.

DAJO · 04-23-2017, 05:34 PM

I have an 08 Spartan with the condenser on the bottom. It gets very poor air flow being on the bottom and causes the fan to run on high a lot because of high pressure in the a/c system. I like your setup better and will do something like that if mine fails. The closer the condenser to the radiator the more air will pulled through it. A/C condensers have been installed in front of radiator for years on many systems and work good. Your cooling fan will be cycled by the ecm when a/c pressures climb to a preset value.

RV Norm · 05-09-2017, 08:17 PM

It's a huge radiator. Your condenser shouldn't have a huge affect.

It doesn't cost you anything to try it how it is. I would plan a short trip and give it he'll with the A/C on high. Pay attention to the temp and if it gets out, turn the A/C off.

timjet · 05-10-2017, 05:29 AM

Thanks. I have driven a short trip about an hour one way with no indication that the coolant temp was higher than before.
I'm still concerned the engine will not get proper cooling but from the advice here and elsewhere my concern may not be justified. So I'm going to install a Silverleaf engine monitoring system that will give me warning of increasing coolant temps.
I'm attending the Spartan chassis school in August. It will be interesting what they say about this.