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09-14-2018, 11:18 AM
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#29
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Senior Member
Monaco Owners Club Forest River Owners Club
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,323
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Probably not your problem but I’ve had problems with my tag air solenoid “sticking “ its in the rear 6pack. The problem was obvious though because with the key on and running you could hear the air leaking from the 6 pack mounted above the pass side rear wheels.
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2023 Coachmen Encore 325SS
2002 Ford Escape toad
2020 GMC terrain
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09-14-2018, 11:45 AM
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#30
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: CLEARWATER, FLORIDA
Posts: 1,052
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I know it sounds dumb, but is it possible the air gauge is defective?
Tom
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Tom & Jan ---- Westwing43 (RVM28)
2008 NEWMAR MOUNTAIN AIRE 4528
Pulling a 2014 CHEVY CAPTIVA
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09-14-2018, 12:55 PM
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#31
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardE
I apologize in advance formthis request but sometimes information changes and gets confounded as a problem like this develops.
Would you mind taking the time to cleary state what the air pressure is doing, exactly when and what conditons it happens, what instuments you use to tell you this, and what parts have been checked or replaced?
That may seem like a lot to ask, but as you continue to chase this issue, you will have to logically and succintly explain it to the next mechanic.
If you take the time to do this, you may find the logical answer or someone on the site may be able to help
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No problem. I am all for anything that can assist with finding this issue.
-It is only the Primary (Green side)
-It will air up as it should to 130/135lbs the compressor shuts off, the pop offs kick in and it drops to 125/130lb it will hold there for a minute or more then will slowly drop for 5 lbs then drops more rapid until it hits the compressor which airs it back up. It does this continuously. Road bumps do not seem to effect this in any way. It will do it on flat roads and no worse on whoop dee doo's that really get the coach to bouncing.
-When it is parked and off it loses the typical 5lbs +/- over night.
-Testing the brakes with it both running and off by holding them for an extended period it loses no air other than the initial application, we tested this with the E-brake both on and off.
-New parts: Air Governor, Air dryer, all pop off's, all the check valves on the air tanks and replaced a couple hoses that very minor leaks.
-What's been checked: All air lines/connections, air brakes completely, air bags, 6 pack valves, air salvos, the treadle valve, the air gauge, all exposed connections.
It will do this when parked idling but not as bad or as noticeable. The issue is when this coach is running it is loud so not way to hear an air leak. It does this most when on the road so again how can they check for leaks while it is in motion?
If anymore info is needed please ask. I did speak to the shop the number was supplied for. His thought was the compressor. He said there is a check valve in the head that can cause a similar issue especially on rigs that do not get run a lot they begin to stick.
Thanks
__________________
2004 Beaver Monterey Ventura.
ISC350 / Allison 3000
2015 Wrangler Unlimited Altitude Blue OX RVI3
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09-14-2018, 12:57 PM
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#32
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLGPE
I know it sounds dumb, but is it possible the air gauge is defective?
Tom
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There are no leaks at the gauge and the system is calling for air you can hear the pop offs hit when the compressor brings it back up to pressure. If it was the gauge the compressor would not come on I wouldn't think. It's bound to be something odd like this though.
Thanks
__________________
2004 Beaver Monterey Ventura.
ISC350 / Allison 3000
2015 Wrangler Unlimited Altitude Blue OX RVI3
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09-14-2018, 12:59 PM
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#33
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillJinOR
Probably not your problem but I’ve had problems with my tag air solenoid “sticking “ its in the rear 6pack. The problem was obvious though because with the key on and running you could hear the air leaking from the 6 pack mounted above the pass side rear wheels.
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This is one of things I suspect also. This is a really hard thing to diagnose if this coach is running you couldn't hear a 747 if it was 20' from you. lol.
__________________
2004 Beaver Monterey Ventura.
ISC350 / Allison 3000
2015 Wrangler Unlimited Altitude Blue OX RVI3
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09-15-2018, 10:33 AM
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#34
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 350
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Your summary was very helpful.
One clarifying question. With engine not running, what to the gauges read the next day? Please give all three, primary, secondary, and supply.
Assuming it is just the primary side that is leaking down drives the following logic. It is either a leak in the supply side and the PPV is not working OR it is a leak in the primary brake system.
You said the PPVs were replaced.
You also said the treadle was checked. You said the brake relay valves were checked, but honestly that is the first place I would look now. Both at the relay valve for the drive axle brakes and at the relay for the tandem brakes. Those valves take air from the primary tank, and activate when the treadle sends air pressure to them. They release air to the brakes immediately when the treadle is released. Internally they have a spring loaded spool with o rings that seal the spool to the bore. I have seen them leaking to the point that the coach would not build enough air pressure to release the parking brake.
I don't know what techniques your mechanic used, but in my circle of greasy knuckled Newell owners who constantly chase air leaks, we use two tools primarily. The first is a bug sprayer filled with bubble solution bought at the Dollar store. Yeah, I know you can make your own with dish detergent, but the kids bubble solution makes a bubble that blows bigger and lasts longer. We just properly support the coach, and then crawl under with the sprayer. Spray everything that is air related. The second is an Infinicon ultrasonic leak detector. Use it with earbuds and it is amazing what you can hear.
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09-17-2018, 06:07 AM
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#35
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardE
Your summary was very helpful.
One clarifying question. With engine not running, what to the gauges read the next day? Please give all three, primary, secondary, and supply.
Assuming it is just the primary side that is leaking down drives the following logic. It is either a leak in the supply side and the PPV is not working OR it is a leak in the primary brake system.
You said the PPVs were replaced.
You also said the treadle was checked. You said the brake relay valves were checked, but honestly that is the first place I would look now. Both at the relay valve for the drive axle brakes and at the relay for the tandem brakes. Those valves take air from the primary tank, and activate when the treadle sends air pressure to them. They release air to the brakes immediately when the treadle is released. Internally they have a spring loaded spool with o rings that seal the spool to the bore. I have seen them leaking to the point that the coach would not build enough air pressure to release the parking brake.
I don't know what techniques your mechanic used, but in my circle of greasy knuckled Newell owners who constantly chase air leaks, we use two tools primarily. The first is a bug sprayer filled with bubble solution bought at the Dollar store. Yeah, I know you can make your own with dish detergent, but the kids bubble solution makes a bubble that blows bigger and lasts longer. We just properly support the coach, and then crawl under with the sprayer. Spray everything that is air related. The second is an Infinicon ultrasonic leak detector. Use it with earbuds and it is amazing what you can hear.
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Richard,
Edited for what is did over the weekend from Friday at approx. 2pm until this morning Monday at 8:45am. The green (primary) dropped to 90lbs. The red was 0.
I started it up, it brings both to 130lbs kicks the pop off and settles at 125. I tried just letting it run to see if they moved at all for 10 minutes they did not then I shut it off and just left the key on to see if they dropped for 10 minutes again they did not. I am going to go out and check it a little later to see how much they drop over a few hour time span.
I will have the brake system gone through again as you suggest. I am not sure of the method he uses to detect leak. I do not believe he has one of the Ultra sonic leak detectors. I was considering getting one of those myself they do not seem to be crazy expensive.
Thanks
__________________
2004 Beaver Monterey Ventura.
ISC350 / Allison 3000
2015 Wrangler Unlimited Altitude Blue OX RVI3
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09-17-2018, 07:32 AM
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#36
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 857
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For my own knowledge I have read so many posts that do not seem to agree with each other regarding which color air gauge needle reads which system. Or even what is on the primary and secondary systems.
I thought I had read the Green is primary for the brakes and suspension. The Red was anything else. Air horns etc. Then I read no the green runs the rear brakes the red the front. No input as to the air suspension.
I have seen the generic schematics REV supplied to me but that really is unclear as to the isolation of the systems.
Does anyone know for sure which gauge runs which systems?
Thanks.
__________________
2004 Beaver Monterey Ventura.
ISC350 / Allison 3000
2015 Wrangler Unlimited Altitude Blue OX RVI3
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09-17-2018, 08:11 AM
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#37
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Senior Member
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Orlando, Florida
Posts: 5,819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nasdaqsam
I thought I had read the Green is primary for the brakes and suspension. The Red was anything else. Air horns etc. Then I read no the green runs the rear brakes the red the front. No input as to the air suspension.
Thanks.
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No, that is not correct. The air brake system is divided into two systems, primary and secondary. This has to do only with the brakes.
The Primary system is the rear brakes (the term/name "primary"was assigned to the rear because the rear has more stopping power - i.e most trucks have tandem axles so there are more brakes on the rear, and there's more weight on the rear).
The Secondary system is the steering axle (front).
As far as know if there not a requirement on the "color of the needles" in the air pressure gauge to signify primary or secondary systems. I could not not find a specific reference for this in the governing codes (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards FMVSS 121 covers this area).
It is only required that both systems be monitored. So the manufacturer can use whatever colors they want.
Quote:
FMVSS No. 121
S5.1.4 Pressure gauge requires a pressure gauge that is visible to the driver for each service brake system. In a typical split air brake system there are two independent air subsystems (primary and secondary) that each have a reservoir or series of reservoirs. The air pressure gauge has two pressure indicators (pointers), one for the primary system, and one for the secondary system, or, two separate gauges can be used with one gauge provided for each system.
S5.1.5 Warning signal requires a low air pressure warning signal that is either visible to the driver, or if it is not directly in front of the driver, is both visible and audible. The warning signal must activate when the pressure in any reservoir system is below 60 psi and the vehicle's ignition is in the on position.
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I find it common for the "Secondary system" to be red or orange, and the "Primary side" to be green. But I also know some trucks have individual gauges with black colored pointers and the gauges have "Primary" and "Secondary" printed on them.
The reason many refer to the Secondary side as Orange or Red may just because that's the way the brake system manufacturers' color code their training/troubleshooting manuals.
As far as accessories, like air horn or air suspension, coming off the brake supply system/tanks - it does not matter which tank is used. Which ever tank is closest to the accessory is what will be used. Except the Wet tank. However there must be a "pressure protection valve" installed so if the pressure in the tank falls below 65-70 psi the valve will close and not allow air to leak out the accessory (this protects the brakes from losing air due to a leaking item (like the air horn or air bags).
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09-17-2018, 10:28 AM
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#38
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CountryB
No, that is not correct. The air brake system is divided into two systems, primary and secondary. This has to do only with the brakes.
The Primary system is the rear brakes (the term/name "primary"was assigned to the rear because the rear has more stopping power - i.e most trucks have tandem axles so there are more brakes on the rear, and there's more weight on the rear).
The Secondary system is the steering axle (front).
As far as know if there not a requirement on the "color of the needles" in the air pressure gauge to signify primary or secondary systems. I could not not find a specific reference for this in the governing codes (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards FMVSS 121 covers this area).
It is only required that both systems be monitored. So the manufacturer can use whatever colors they want.
I find it common for the "Secondary system" to be red or orange, and the "Primary side" to be green. But I also know some trucks have individual gauges with black colored pointers and the gauges have "Primary" and "Secondary" printed on them.
The reason many refer to the Secondary side as Orange or Red may just because that's the way the brake system manufacturers' color code their training/troubleshooting manuals.
As far as accessories, like air horn or air suspension, coming off the brake supply system/tanks - it does not matter which tank is used. Which ever tank is closest to the accessory is what will be used. Except the Wet tank. However there must be a "pressure protection valve" installed so if the pressure in the tank falls below 65-70 psi the valve will close and not allow air to leak out the accessory (this protects the brakes from losing air due to a leaking item (like the air horn or air bags).
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This helps a lot in understanding the air system. Thank you
In the past 2 hours I have been monitoring the gauges. The Green has not moved at all the red has dropped 15 lbs. Not sure if this is a new development of if I was so concerned with the Primary side I did really did not pay attention. Of course I just got the RV back also.
It would seem a 15lb drop over a couple hours would produce some kind of visible signs of a leak???
__________________
2004 Beaver Monterey Ventura.
ISC350 / Allison 3000
2015 Wrangler Unlimited Altitude Blue OX RVI3
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09-17-2018, 10:53 AM
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#39
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Senior Member
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Orlando, Florida
Posts: 5,819
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My coach leaks down about the same rate as yours. You would think that much of a drop in pressure it would sound like "pulling the schrader valve out of a tire". But that's not the case.
When the engine is running, the engine's air compressor can easily keep up with that size leak and keep the tanks full, so it's not a safety issue. More of an inconvenience when you need to wait for air pressure to build back up after starting the engine.
The only way to find this is to soap all the air fittings and look for bubbles.
I tried with dish soap and water mix but that didn't work too well. Then I bought "leak detector" spray and had much better luck. The leak detector spray is a lot thicker and sits on the fittings longer and makes longer lasting bubbles. I found that it took a long time between spraying and bubbles to appear (at least on my leaks).
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09-17-2018, 06:49 PM
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#40
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 350
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Ok, thanks for clarifying. I was about to question you on changing your story before I saw the confusion on red and green arrows.
I am assuming that you do not have a another gauge that shows you the pressure before the brake tanks. Some coaches do, some don't. If you don't. Then it might be an interesting data point to make a gauge on a quick disconnect fitting and plug it into your air line port.
You are going to have get some assistance in 100% verifying which brake system is leaking down. It cuts your search in half.
If you do crawl under the coach with soapy solution, please properly support the coach with cribbing or jack stands. The hydraulic jacks do not count as support.
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09-18-2018, 03:55 AM
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#41
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CountryB
My coach leaks down about the same rate as yours. You would think that much of a drop in pressure it would sound like "pulling the schrader valve out of a tire". But that's not the case.
When the engine is running, the engine's air compressor can easily keep up with that size leak and keep the tanks full, so it's not a safety issue. More of an inconvenience when you need to wait for air pressure to build back up after starting the engine.
The only way to find this is to soap all the air fittings and look for bubbles.
I tried with dish soap and water mix but that didn't work too well. Then I bought "leak detector" spray and had much better luck. The leak detector spray is a lot thicker and sits on the fittings longer and makes longer lasting bubbles. I found that it took a long time between spraying and bubbles to appear (at least on my leaks).
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I have another guy that is going to take a look at it this week. I will ask him to use the better spray. Thanks
__________________
2004 Beaver Monterey Ventura.
ISC350 / Allison 3000
2015 Wrangler Unlimited Altitude Blue OX RVI3
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09-18-2018, 04:16 AM
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#42
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Senior Member
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Orlando, Florida
Posts: 5,819
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This is the spray I used https://www.amazon.com/Rectorseal-65...detector+spray
Some have reported good results using the solution used for kids' bubble blowers. Some use a pump-up weed/lawn sprayer and just spray the entire undercarriage.
The hardest part is getting under the coach to spray. Spray everything then wait a while (an hour?). You may need to start engine to get pressure up during this. The higher the pressure, the quicker the leak will show.
On my coach the majority of leaks where from the push-on fittings. I had a bunch of little leaks. I would be nice to just have one big leak - fix it and be done. But more likely you have a lot of little leaks.
Those push-to-connect fittings are a pain. They are really hard to get apart (and the o-ring inside is not replaceable). I just cut the tube with a box cutter where it enters the fitting and used a new air brake compression fitting wherever I had a leak.
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