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Old 09-02-2013, 10:21 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by jerichorick View Post
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To Lt Dan: What great input. The few 30A RV services I have seen were low end and dedicated to 30A. Your conversion was made to happen at the factory. I wonder if it was an option in your model year? But, great job and fantastic input. I think we who have been following this were all thinking 'true' 30A service. You certainly got to the chase with this post! Thank.

Rick
Thank you Rick. I never understood why the Itasca was set up for only 30 amp service since it had everything for 50 amp except for the heavier gauge ATS to breaker box supply wire and shore line. I guess the 50 amp was an extra cost factory option (we bought the rig used) and 30 amp is probably sufficient in cooler climates. Here in Texas and the southwest it's definitely not enough in the Summer months.
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Old 09-02-2013, 10:28 AM   #44
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Old 09-02-2013, 12:27 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Algoma View Post
If the coach originally came with only a 30 amp input then it must only have one a/c unit. So unless sclaryusa is adding a second unit I don't see what loads would be moved to the second side of the 50 amp circuit. There is also the issue of a generator and the transfer switch from that. Way too much trouble and expense unless you are constantly tripping the 30 amp breaker and can't live with the limitations.
Not so. I have a 30 amp service and two roof top a/c units. True, I can only operate one at a time but we adapt.
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Old 09-02-2013, 05:20 PM   #46
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I can operate both air conditioners at once. I turn one off to run microwave or washer/dryer.
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Old 09-03-2013, 07:42 AM   #47
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Lt Dan, my last coach had basement air and 50A service. Never could keep up with TX summer heat. Summer in TX is because of DW's twin sister. If it weren't for her summer in TX would NEVER be in my vocabulary!

On another post I found this information that might help anyone wanting to do a 30 to 50A conversion: Master Catalog

I had a Progressive inverter in my '05 Winnebago and had a lot of trouble with it. As far as a good, full service inverter manufacturer is concerned Magnum seems to be a good choice. This is what Lifeline AGM batteries recommends.

There is no reason a needed conversion can't be done by any handy person. Just have your work inspected by an experienced person and KNOW exactly what you need to know before you jump in. Make connections tight and take no shortcuts. Even knowing how to put a wire nut on correctly can make all of the difference in the world and be the first prevention of fire or circuit failure.
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Old 09-03-2013, 08:24 AM   #48
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Yeah, I guess we could. It does a disservice to the readers of the forum, though, because there is no resolution. It would be good for another electrician to weigh in.
OK you got one.
Yes Ramblin you are right .

QUOTE "A high resistance connection plus the normal electical load for devices used could drive the current on the 10 gauge wiring between the pedestal and the breaker panel to 50 amps."

A high resistance connection the current (amps) will not rise. It would cause heat (maybe fire) at the connection but it would also cause the same thing if plugged into a 30amp service.
Both cords (30 & 50 amp) should be rated at 250VAC and work well plugged into a 50amp service. The RV 30amp breaker would limit the power draw. You would have a voltage drop at the bad high resistance connection but the current draw would remain the same as limited by the breaker. With lower voltage in the RV items using the circuit would try to draw more current but the incoming amps would be keep below 30amps.


As far as the two A/C units when the RV with these have just the 30amp service most of the time they have a generator that can output power to run both A/C units at the same time. There is also a switch in the RV to allow both to run on the generator or one at a time on shore power.
This is what I have on my RV unit so I ran a 20amp cord to a new transfer box between the generator and the load. I can now plug in both the 20 and 30 amp cords in the pedestal at the same time to run both A/C units in a park. Cost, under $100.00. No need to rewire the RV to 50amps to run both AC units.
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Old 09-04-2013, 05:48 AM   #49
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Lt Dan, is your generator a 2 hot leg or one? It is interesting that Winnebago uses Onan gensets that don't produce 240V/120V. They use in phase legs with a 0V difference between them. Basicly, the power generator is fed into a built in UPS. How does this figure into your conversion? Do you have 2 hot legs from the genset to the xfer sw?

What gauge wire runs from the xfer sw to the power distribution center? On a short run (a few feet) you could get away with #8 but #6 is better. Less loss.

I know the 20A/30A two cord setup works just fine. But for those who want the true feel of 50A service all of this information we are providing and debating is great. It helps to shake out the myths, and the cobwebs from my early morning brain!

Always consider P=EI and I=E/R. If R is the device being used, no problems. If R is the connections of the power cord and the load being used, this is potentially a problem. 50A or 30A service. The rules still work. AC devices are a bit different in how their power consumption is determined, true. But pure resistance is a problem in the wrong location as in the pedestal connection.
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Old 09-04-2013, 09:19 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by jerichorick View Post
Lt Dan, is your generator a 2 hot leg or one? It is interesting that Winnebago uses Onan gensets that don't produce 240V/120V. They use in phase legs with a 0V difference between them. Basicly, the power generator is fed into a built in UPS. How does this figure into your conversion? Do you have 2 hot legs from the genset to the xfer sw?

What gauge wire runs from the xfer sw to the power distribution center? On a short run (a few feet) you could get away with #8 but #6 is better. Less loss.

I know the 20A/30A two cord setup works just fine. But for those who want the true feel of 50A service all of this information we are providing and debating is great. It helps to shake out the myths, and the cobwebs from my early morning brain!

Rick;

The genset is an Onan 5500 and has two hot leads. On the original setup, the second leg was connected only to the second compressor.

It's basically putting out 120v to each leg, so it's not true 240 like you said. Because of this, the load management system treats it just like 120 and the amp load is displayed on the load shedder. When connected to 240v shore line, the load shedder doesn't display load. I thought that was a fault until I checked the user manual for the management system and it says that when connected to 240volt supply the load is not displayed.

The way I set mine up was to try and balance the loads with one A/C compressor on each side of the breaker panel and distribute other major loads like refrigerator, micorwave and water heater.

When I have to connect to 30amp service at a park that only has 30amp, I built a connector box with a jumper between the two sides of the female connector. That simply puts me back where I was with the old service, 120volt 30 amp to both sides of the circuit.

As for supply wire, I used 6 guage stranded 4 conductor to handle the 50amps. I encased it in plastic wire loom protector all the way from the ATS to the breaker box.

I considered the separate 20amp line setup to the second a/c compressor but decided I would rather have just the one shoreline connection to deal with.
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Old 09-04-2013, 09:56 AM   #51
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If the coach originally came with only a 30 amp input then it must only have one a/c unit. So unless sclaryusa is adding a second unit I don't see what loads would be moved to the second side of the 50 amp circuit. There is also the issue of a generator and the transfer switch from that. Way too much trouble and expense unless you are constantly tripping the 30 amp breaker and can't live with the limitations.

My Bounder is 30amp and has 2 AC's. It sheds power on start up.
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Old 09-04-2013, 12:42 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by jerichorick View Post
Lt Dan, my last coach had basement air and 50A service. Never could keep up with TX summer heat. Summer in TX is because of DW's twin sister. If it weren't for her summer in TX would NEVER be in my vocabulary!

On another post I found this information that might help anyone wanting to do a 30 to 50A conversion: Master Catalog

I had a Progressive inverter in my '05 Winnebago and had a lot of trouble with it. As far as a good, full service inverter manufacturer is concerned Magnum seems to be a good choice. This is what Lifeline AGM batteries recommends.

There is no reason a needed conversion can't be done by any handy person. Just have your work inspected by an experienced person and KNOW exactly what you need to know before you jump in. Make connections tight and take no shortcuts. Even knowing how to put a wire nut on correctly can make all of the difference in the world and be the first prevention of fire or circuit failure.
OMG your comment even putting on a wire nut correctly. I used to spend a lot of time on another forum I swear the posts about the correct way to put on a wire nut was one of the biggest disagreements I have ever seen. Amazing how something that simple can have so many different viewpoints. Just to give it a starting point. I think the best way to put on wire nuts is to take pliers and twist the wires together (if solid copper twist with hand if stranded) after the wires are twisted together put the wire nut on to help hold them together and give electrical inuslation. After the wire nut is on take a piece of tape and tape the bottom of the wire nut in place to keep dirt and moisture out also to keep vibrations from loosening the wire nut. I do not actually do it quite this way I only put that out for what I think is the minimum acceptable right way to do it. I actually solder the wires together first then do the steps above
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Old 09-04-2013, 12:59 PM   #53
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OK you got one.
Yes Ramblin you are right .

QUOTE "A high resistance connection plus the normal electical load for devices used could drive the current on the 10 gauge wiring between the pedestal and the breaker panel to 50 amps."

A high resistance connection the current (amps) will not rise. It would cause heat (maybe fire) at the connection but it would also cause the same thing if plugged into a 30amp service.
Both cords (30 & 50 amp) should be rated at 250VAC and work well plugged into a 50amp service. The RV 30amp breaker would limit the power draw. You would have a voltage drop at the bad high resistance connection but the current draw would remain the same as limited by the breaker. With lower voltage in the RV items using the circuit would try to draw more current but the incoming amps would be keep below 30amps.


As far as the two A/C units when the RV with these have just the 30amp service most of the time they have a generator that can output power to run both A/C units at the same time. There is also a switch in the RV to allow both to run on the generator or one at a time on shore power.
This is what I have on my RV unit so I ran a 20amp cord to a new transfer box between the generator and the load. I can now plug in both the 20 and 30 amp cords in the pedestal at the same time to run both A/C units in a park. Cost, under $100.00. No need to rewire the RV to 50amps to run both AC units.
Actually you are quite right about the high impedance connection. I was trying to think of something that I could use to illustrate a partial short that would cause increased current. I used the illustration of a high impedance connection incorrectly thank you for pointing that out. I do not however agree with you about the 30 amp cord and the 50 amp cord both working find in a 50 amp service. As an electrical I am surprised you would ever advocate using a lighter cord than the disconnect that feeds it. If you have a short in that cord. the cord has the capability of being a fuse-able link and basically opening up while releasing a goodly amount of heat prior to the 50 amp breaker tripping. If you had any kind of parasitic current drain on the cord which would push it up to 50 amps between the 50 amp service and the 30 amp breaker you can be looking at a heat related failure of the cord. Does it happen very often probably not as other posters have suggested the lawsuits would be numerous if it was a common event However companies compute liabilities versus profits all the time. If there is enough profit to offset liabilities then companies will make products and sell them. If there is any doubt about that go down to any supermarket, convenience store, etc and see if they sell cigarettes. There has been a lot of lawsuits and billions of dollars paid out for that product but you can still buy them everywhere

I still respectfully disagree I think that other than for an emergency where you dont have a lot of choice and for an extremely short duration of time it is not a good idea to plug a 30 amp shore power cable into a 50 amp pedestal. Everyone can weigh their own risk assesment and do what they wish.
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Old 09-04-2013, 02:11 PM   #54
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Darn, I always thought that a cord or wire was sized for the load and not the source.
Do you ever plug a device with a 15amp plug into a 20amp receptacle at home?
That would be about doing the same thing.

A cord rated at 230VAC should not have any parasitic current drain. The ends of the cord are far apart at the one end that goes into the 30amp breaker.
A dead short on a 30amp cord should trip a 50amp breaker as the rating of 30amps is for continuous service.
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Old 09-04-2013, 02:32 PM   #55
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Wire nuts are normally used in home situations, NOT in motor-homes. The normal method to secure wires together in a motor-home is to use a copper crimp end with a plastic cover or if the wire is heavy gauge use the crimp on eyes and then use a bolt and nut to tie them together.

There is too much vibration and movement with a motor-home to trust a wire nut.

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Old 09-04-2013, 06:52 PM   #56
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Darn, I always thought that a cord or wire was sized for the load and not the source.
Do you ever plug a device with a 15amp plug into a 20amp receptacle at home?
That would be about doing the same thing.

A cord rated at 230VAC should not have any parasitic current drain. The ends of the cord are far apart at the one end that goes into the 30amp breaker.
A dead short on a 30amp cord should trip a 50amp breaker as the rating of 30amps is for continuous service.
Dang and here I am thinking that you sized the cord for the load and then you sized the breaker for the load also making sure the cord is heavier or at the very least equally rated for the breaker that is feeding it.

If you read my earlier posts you will see where I had a dead short on a 15 amp lamp. Not only did it not trip the 20 amp breaker it burned the building it was in down and almost burned my house down.


How many amps does it take to trip a 50 amp breaker immediately ?
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