Community Forums

az bound · 08-11-2012, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ga traveler

I was not going to get into this discussion because I am neither against or for spring replacement. I would like to point out that Chevy came out with a service bulletin saying not to replace the front springs with stronger springs. According to Chevy, the stronger springs were bigger in diameter and would bottom out on a bad bump and damage the front end.

Quite correct. If one chooses to eliminate the the airbags and go with springs only, they must be chosen carefully, or ride quality and handling will suffer as well as possibly dammaging the suspension.
With the airbags one can adjust pressures anywhere from 50lbs. to 100lbs. With springs only there is no adjustment.
With the addition of an onboard compressor and in cab controls it is also possible to adjust for changes in road conditions, the same as on many high end automobiles.

I am not insisting that no one do it, just that they think about it carefully before doing so. The air assisted front suspension has been in use for over 50 years simply because it works so well.

I will have to add that all of the dammage that I have seen was self inflicted by failure of the operator to maintain minimum air pressure. Just as with tires, if the proper inflation is not maintained, expect to pay the price.

WeatherTodd · 08-11-2012, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ga traveler

I was not going to get into this discussion because I am neither against or for spring replacement. I would like to point out that Chevy came out with a service bulletin saying not to replace the front springs with stronger springs. According to Chevy, the stronger springs were bigger in diameter and would bottom out on a bad bump and damage the front end.

sounds like you are seriously confused. I know this because I did replace the factory springs with properly rated ones for my coach. And the factory springs were in fact fatigued.
Leaf springs have been around for a long time too... longer than coil springs. They are used because they are cheap... not necessarily the best component for the job/duty.

Maybe my coach was a limited production, under sprung model.

Please detail the "damage" that happens when replacing weak factory coil springs with HD units rated for the actual weight/load. Clearly the bulletin you saw/have would detail that.

WeatherTodd · 08-11-2012, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by az bound

Quite correct. If one chooses to eliminate the the airbags and go with springs only, they must be chosen carefully, or ride quality and handling will suffer as well as possibly dammaging the suspension.
With the airbags one can adjust pressures anywhere from 50lbs. to 100lbs. With springs only there is no adjustment.
With the addition of an onboard compressor and in cab controls it is also possible to adjust for changes in road conditions, the same as on many high end automobiles.

I am not insisting that no one do it, just that they think about it carefully before doing so. The air assisted front suspension has been in use for over 50 years simply because it works so well.

I will have to add that all of the dammage that I have seen was self inflicted by failure of the operator to maintain minimum air pressure. Just as with tires, if the proper inflation is not maintained, expect to pay the price.

every time this debate comes up you ring the "oh its been around 50yrs bell".
Its been around because GM was cheap and could install the same parts in every configuration of the same chassis and not have to deal with "end users" or "warranty" problems. WH certainly didnt put a penny into developing it. Matter of fact they phased it out... like the horse & buggy was many moons ago.

az bound · 08-11-2012, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeatherTodd

every time this debate comes up you ring the "oh its been around 50yrs bell".
Its been around because GM was cheap and could install the same parts in every configuration of the same chassis and not have to deal with "end users" or "warranty" problems. WH certainly didnt put a penny into developing it. Matter of fact they phased it out... like the horse & buggy was many moons ago.

You are correct in that Workhorse did not put a penny into development. It was done by GM 40+ years earlier.
The P32 has been the same chassis since its inception, what are you referring to?

The P32 was not phased out, it came to an abrupt halt when GM seased producution of the 8.1 in 2009.

My position is this. The suspension on The P32 is an excellent one. Every bit of dammage that I have seen was caused by failure of the operator to maintain, not by the suspension design. If there is proof otherwise, please share.

az bound · 08-11-2012, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeatherTodd

every time this debate comes up you ring the "oh its been around 50yrs bell".
Its been around because GM was cheap and could install the same parts in every configuration of the same chassis and not have to deal with "end users" or "warranty" problems. WH certainly didnt put a penny into developing it. Matter of fact they phased it out... like the horse & buggy was many moons ago.

You are correct in that Workhorse did not put a penny into development. It was done by GM 40+ years earlier.
The P32 has been the same chassis since its inception, what are you referring to?

The P32 was not phased out, it came to an abrupt halt when GM seased producution of the 8.1 in 2009.

My position is this. The suspension on The P32 is an excellent one. Every bit of dammage that I have seen was caused by failure of the operator to maintain, not by the suspension design. If there is proof otherwise, please share.

ga traveler · 08-11-2012, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeatherTodd

sounds like you are seriously confused. I know this because I did replace the factory springs with properly rated ones for my coach. And the factory springs were in fact fatigued.
Leaf springs have been around for a long time too... longer than coil springs. They are used because they are cheap... not necessarily the best component for the job/duty.

Maybe my coach was a limited production, under sprung model.

Please detail the "damage" that happens when replacing weak factory coil springs with HD units rated for the actual weight/load. Clearly the bulletin you saw/have would detail that.

How am I confused? It was a bulletin from Chevy. If you replace a coil spring with a coil spring of a larger diameter and you put the new spring in the same space, if you hit a big bump, the new spring will compress all the way and cause the spring to bottom out. That was exactly what the Chevy bulliten said.

rvguy40 · 08-11-2012, 07:21 PM

"To the best of my knowledge National did not install the Hellwig spring on any coach, it is aftermarket."
Actually I thought that the owner had added it also, however, upon reviewing the sales brochure for the coach, any coach over 31 ft on a Chevy chassis automatically got the Hellwig buggy spring on the front from National... a "forced option" as it were. And as far as unsupported airbags... diesel coaches have them... my Town Car has them.. not trying to start a war, mind you.. just making sure I'm following is all..

az bound · 08-11-2012, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvguy40

"To the best of my knowledge National did not install the Hellwig spring on any coach, it is aftermarket."
Actually I thought that the owner had added it also, however, upon reviewing the sales brochure for the coach, any coach over 31 ft on a Chevy chassis automatically got the Hellwig buggy spring on the front from National... a "forced option" as it were. And as far as unsupported airbags... diesel coaches have them... my Town Car has them.. not trying to start a war, mind you.. just making sure I'm following is all..

Great deal of difference in construction of bags on a DP, P32 or a Town car.
Hard to believe that in this day and age that Lincoln would be using such an antiquated system according to WeatherTom.

WeatherTodd · 08-11-2012, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ga traveler

How am I confused? It was a bulletin from Chevy. If you replace a coil spring with a coil spring of a larger diameter and you put the new spring in the same space, if you hit a big bump, the new spring will compress all the way and cause the spring to bottom out. That was exactly what the Chevy bulliten said.

why would you replace a coil spring with whats weaker than the factory air assisted one?? This is where you are confused.

Regardless... its ancient chassis history. I could care less if someone doesnt want to correctly repair a known chassis problem. They can call coach net or good sam from the road side like all the "michelin blow out" victims.

WeatherTodd · 08-11-2012, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by az bound

Great deal of difference in construction of bags on a DP, P32 or a Town car.
Hard to believe that in this day and age that Lincoln would be using such an antiquated system according to WeatherTom.

lincoln has ceased production on the town car... so they have that in common with the p30

az bound · 08-11-2012, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeatherTodd

lincoln has ceased production on the town car... so they have that in common with the p30

Maybe where you live, but the 2013 Lincoln Towncars are in the showrooms here.

az bound · 08-12-2012, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvguy40

"To the best of my knowledge National did not install the Hellwig spring on any coach, it is aftermarket."
Actually I thought that the owner had added it also, however, upon reviewing the sales brochure for the coach, any coach over 31 ft on a Chevy chassis automatically got the Hellwig buggy spring on the front from National... a "forced option" as it were. And as far as unsupported airbags... diesel coaches have them... my Town Car has them.. not trying to start a war, mind you.. just making sure I'm following is all..

Although I retired several years ago I am still very interested in suspension modifications. I have never seen or heard of the mod using a Hellwig leafspring hooked to an IFS.
If you still have that brochure or any photos I would enjoy seeing them. I have been unable to find any reference and am curious how the leafspring was adapted to fit the control arms.

az bound · 08-12-2012, 12:54 PM

I think I have it figured out. rvguy40 has the solid axle gonfiguration, so nothing he states would relate to the OPs IFS.
This type of *%^& only serves to confuse.

rvguy40 · 08-12-2012, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by az bound

I think I have it figured out. rvguy40 has the solid axle gonfiguration, so nothing he states would relate to the OPs IFS.
This type of *%^& only serves to confuse.

My apologies, AZ...I DO have a '97 P32 with coil/airbag suspension on the front....give me just a bit and I will post some pics of the setup. Sorry for the confusion, but the pics will clear everything up.