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Old 06-04-2016, 04:32 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by cbilodeau View Post
Nobody said spring suspension were the panacea. It had its advantage and disadvantage. for the road truckers I would not put spring suspensions since a air bag suspension is better on nice highways and is cheaper.

The same apply for an expensive pickup truck, you will put spring suspension to be able to go on differents roads than the one the big truckers are using.

..............
This shows you have no idea what you are saying. Airbags are not "cheaper" than springs. Springs are about as cheap as it gets.

Here's the thing, air bags require an air compressor, air tanks, air dryer, air lines, control module, ride height valves, and the all important air bags. It's more to engineer, more to install, more to maintain, and more money to build. Air bag size and stiffness is chosen to provide a certain ride based on the size and weight of a vehicle, much as spring weight is chosen based on the weight of a vehicle. The difference is that air pressure can be varied to accommodate the current weight of a vehicle while springs are chosen for a vehicles max weight. It's why an unloaded school bus can shake out your fillings yet a fully loaded school bus is much better behaved.

Air bags can be adjusted individually while in motion to maintain a smooth and level ride, springs cannot. Think about this, the Porsche Cayenne/ Audo Q7/Volkwagon Toureg come with air ride. From the factory. They aren't the only ones. But sure, air is the "cheap" option. Yet it comes on high end, luxury SUVs, high end busses, and high end, luxury RVs. It's also used on logging trucks, over the road trucks, etc. Air bags work just like springs, only they are infinitely variable. Not only that, but they don't transmit road noise and vibration.

Part of the reason you don't see air ride on a vehicle like a Ford F-150 is cost. It's a fair bit more money to install, and it will need to be maintained, something you don't have to worry about with springs. Cost of ownership is a huge thing in mass vehicle manufacturing. It's why we've seen a move to 100k mile timing belts, spark plugs, and anti freeze. It's why we see "lifetime" transmission fluids.

Springs are tough and require no maintenance. For the overwhelming majority of vehicle buyers springs will not wear out or require replacement. Meanwhile air ride will require maintenance, and often repair and parts replacement. This adds to the cost of ownership, something that is a hard sell when you're building to meet a target customer groups budget.

In real off road applications (not the kind you'll be doing in just about any RV) air can be a detriment precisely because the bags and lines can be vulnerable to damage in a crash. Not only that but the whole system adds weight to the vehicle, considerably more than running a simple coil over system. Note again that in dedicated off road applications they are running application specific tuned shocks, often with external reservoirs and adjustable, coil-over springs. Often with a progressive design, rather than the linear springs on all mass market vehicles. Comparing that kind of set up to what comes in your car or truck is apples to oranges, even more so when someone tries to compare that kind of set up to a large buss or service truck chassis.

As I said before, if you see the OTR trucks and delivery vehicles out and running, you should be fine in your RV. There is nothing special about steel springs that would allow you to drive in conditions where air would falter. Nothing. Beyond that, you can get custom tuned shocks for your vehicle whether you run steel springs or air springs.

As far as "experts" go. I am a certified ASE/Volvo/Volkswagen Master/Expert technician. I've run my own shop, specializing the the diagnostics and repairs of European luxury cars, I've worked as a technical consultant and troubleshooter, and I've worked with O.E. engineers to help resolve issues that didn't manifest themselves until the vehicles went into production and were unleashed on the public here stateside. My advice to you would be to heed what has been said by others here. Don't dismiss a vehicle or system based on the word of a"self proclaimed" expert. Get out there and drive these vehicles to see both what you like and what fits your needs. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised in some aspects, and possibly a bit let down in others. Best to find out first hand rather than exclude and entire category of vehicle due entirely to hearsay.
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Old 06-04-2016, 05:35 PM   #156
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This shows you have no idea what you are saying. Airbags are not "cheaper" than springs. Springs are about as cheap as it gets,,,
Could not have said it better.
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Old 06-04-2016, 06:28 PM   #157
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Could not have said it better.
Well, Sweetbria is totally wrong and I will explain him why later tonight. But is it necessary to bring it to an emotional level? Please be rational it is more interesting.
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Old 06-04-2016, 06:49 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatterbrain View Post
...

Airbags are not "cheaper" than springs. Springs are about as cheap as it gets.

....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatterbrain View Post
...

Airbags are not "cheaper" than springs. Springs are about as cheap as it gets.

....
The fact is that air bags are cheaper... on a big vehicule.

Like the expert OP said in his first posts, for a big vehicule it is cheaper to install an air suspension system than a spring one. Many large vehicule already have air compressor and system for the brakes. Since the wheels are huge and we want the vehicule to be as low as possible, it is cheaper to put air bags.

For a pickup truck we need a long travel for the wheel so we have the space, we have no air system in the vehicule so a spring is cheaper.

But, the expertise of the OP also claim that most or many DP perform simply worst than the motorhome on springs. So this means, in my opinion, that the builder put airbags even if they know it performs worst because they save money. Since this man is very rational in his answers, has a lot of expertise and is not pushing for DP or gasser I feel confident in his teaching. Read his other threads. He is a very good information source.

I would appreciate that you keep the conversation to a technical level.

I will make another post to answer your technical arguments.
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Old 06-04-2016, 06:55 PM   #159
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The fact is that air bags are cheaper... on a big vehicule.

Like the expert OP said in his first posts, for a big vehicule it is cheaper to install an air suspension system than a spring one. Many large vehicule already have air compressor and system for the brakes. Since the wheels are huge and we want the vehicule to be as low as possible, it is cheaper to put air bags.

For a pickup truck we need a long travel for the wheel so we have the space, we have no air system in the vehicule so a spring is cheaper.

But, the expertise of the OP also claim that most or many DP perform simply worst than the motorhome on springs. So this means, in my opinion, that the builder put airbags even if they know it performs worst because they save money. Since this man is very rational in his answers, has a lot of expertise and is not pushing for DP or gasser I feel confident in his teaching. Read his other threads. He is a very good information source.

I would appreciate that you keep the conversation to a technical level.

I will make another post to answer your technical arguments.
What are your technical qualifications? I'm curious. I've enumerated mine. I have the technical wherewithal to evaluate the OPs statements and I find them lacking. That you cling so dearly to them seems more about obstinance than anything I can figure.
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Old 06-04-2016, 07:17 PM   #160
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I'd say he just made a fairly good retort to your last post. Scaleability of springs to large vehicles, the fact big trucks will have an air compressor for brakes anyway so that comes out of the cost equation. You appear to be deflecting the debate now to who has recognized credentials. I'd say you're displaying a bit of obstinance yourself.

I think the OP is making a case that spring suspensions foot his use case. I don't see any argument on his part dissing DPs and air ride for those of us on the road. The argument about people ruining their lives because they overextend themselves to buy a DP is specious.

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What are your technical qualifications? I'm curious. I've enumerated mine. I have the technical wherewithal to evaluate the OPs statements and I find them lacking. That you cling so dearly to them seems more about obstinance than anything I can figure.
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Old 06-04-2016, 07:20 PM   #161
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Air-Ride Suspension Falls Short IN TESTING

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This shows you have no idea what you are saying.

...
Ignore the Inflated Myth of Air-Ride SUSPENSION

This is the title of a report on a big study made on a float of 10,000, 30000 and 40000 pounds vehicules by one of the largest transportation company in the world.



Schneider owns 10120 trucks.

So they made a study and the conclusion is : Air-Ride Suspension Falls Short IN TESTING.

To ensure its fleet is outfitted with the best suspension system, Schneider ran an extensive series of tests between various air- and spring-ride suspension systems to compare the ride quality of the suspensions with three freight weights 10,000, 30,000 and 40,000 pounds. The company ran a series of vibration and acceleration trials using and comparing the values of acceptable ride condition (ARC) and the maximum g-force (the maximum force transmitted) to determine ride quality.

Conducted with the load weights mentioned above, Schneider tested the industry standard spring suspension against four common air suspensions. The four air suspensions that were chosen represent the majority of suspensions in use today.

NOW THE CONCLUSION: Spring Ride Protects Freight and your Bottom Line

Some shippers view air ride as the top suspension choice for handling, lateral control and roll stability, and it's often said to be gentler on freight. On the other hand, spring ride has comparable damping characteristics (the control of motion or oscillation) to air ride for full loads. With limited light or
less-than-truckload shipments, the perceived benefits of air ride are minimal at best.
These tests prove that both air- and spring-ride suspensions are capable of providing the proper damping levels needed not only to get the trailer back to a normal state in the least amount of time but also to protect the freight during transport.
Spring ride is less prone to maintenance issues during the lifecycle of a trailer when compared with air ride. Less likely to need replacement, spring ride has been known to last the life of a trailer. Air-ride suspension, on the other hand, is more likely to need replacement over the same life span, depending on the environment in which the unit resides. It is also more prone to failure subject to puncturing, leaks and collapsing. Should an air-ride suspension collapse while out on the road, freight movement stalls, losing precious time and money.

The conclusion: Air-ride suspension is not superior to spring ride. Not only are air-ride suspensions more expensive to purchase and maintain, which could translate to inflated expense to the shipper, but more important, they do not guarantee superior ride quality.

Here is the report from schneider: https://www.schneider.com/www1/group...r-ride-pdf.pdf

Please everybody keep your reply strickly rationals. We are in 2016. It is not a religion subject. My parents still are in a religion and I am fed up of those type of discussions.
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Old 06-04-2016, 07:28 PM   #162
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I'd say he just made a fairly good retort to your last post. Scaleability of springs to large vehicles, the fact big trucks will have an air compressor for brakes anyway so that comes out of the cost equation. You appear to be deflecting the debate now to who has recognized credentials. I'd say you're displaying a bit of obstinance yourself.

I think the OP is making a case that spring suspensions foot his use case. I don't see any argument on his part dissing DPs and air ride for those of us on the road. The argument about people ruining their lives because they overextend themselves to buy a DP is specious.
Large trucks don't all come with air ride as a default. You can save money and buy them with leaf springs, despite them using air brakes. Volvo for example lists their air ride systems on some trucks as the uprated option, not the default standard. Yet these same trucks use air brakes.
Carl (who I was responding to) is not the OP BTW.
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Old 06-04-2016, 07:38 PM   #163
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What are your technical qualifications? I'm curious. I've enumerated mine. I have the technical wherewithal to evaluate the OPs statements and I find them lacking. That you cling so dearly to them seems more about obstinance than anything I can figure.
You are a technician. You are not an engeneer but you worked with some.

In my province a technician is pre-university and they don't go in a university.

I have two University diploma, Science and Engeneering from the Royal Military College of Canada (I was an army Officer on my previous career and almost 90% of the Canadian officers at that time were engeneers) and also a Computer Science and Operational Research and this bachelor was obtain at the University of Montreal.

But I don't expect specialists here to have any University Bachelor. If you or the OP or any specialist here comes with a so very good expertise I am very satisfied. But I have a good eye to detect a real specialist.

I am the president of a IT and Engeneering company in Montreal. So I have worked and hired engeneers and computer specialists since the last 21 years. My offices are in the most prestigious tower in Montreal at the second last floor.

This does not make me a Suspension specialist. At least this very scientific career helps me understand specs and technical aspects of a project. As a president, you are the one that get the worst case on the desk all day long.

You may now understand why I am expecting and am used to tehcnical discussions without the emotions people are bringing here simply because they "bought" a DP.

My motorhome restoration project is a challenge I brought to my 12, 13 and 15 years old kids. They learned from me electronics, electricity, mechanic, plumbing, everything on this motorhome. My five kids do home schooling and the Motorhome project is a chance from them to become autonomous people. You can not manage people like I do when you can not do the job yourself.

Sorry for my many english mistakes, my life is in french and I speak english only on my trips in USA. I am learning english and with IRV2 I have improved a lot.

N.B.: Today the kids learned the very importance of good isolation for spark on high voltage coils. We changed the coils boots together.
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Old 06-04-2016, 07:46 PM   #164
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I'm following the thread quite well. I know who the OP is. Based on his last post Carl has as smidge of technical training too. I'd say y'all are talking past each other. Possibly in violent agreement.

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Large trucks don't all come with air ride as a default. You can save money and buy them with leaf springs, despite them using air brakes. Volvo for example lists their air ride systems on some trucks as the uprated option, not the default standard. Yet these same trucks use air brakes.
Carl (who I was responding to) is not the OP BTW.
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Old 06-04-2016, 08:03 PM   #165
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Air bag suspension truth and facts...

I am an EXPERT!
Nobody knows more than I do about the stuff I know. I'm an expert at fireflies, and s'mores, and tree leaves, and much more.
But the one thing I am most EXPERT at is my RVs. I had logging truck rides and some amazing boob-bouncer rides, and such. Now I have 10 outboard airbags, 10 custom tuned shocks, Active Air and a Valid leveling system. I do NOT care how much this may have originally cost, nor how they compare to anything else.
I am an EXPERT that mine is the best!.....And there are other EXPERTS that are also like me, with different RVs, that don't care who the EXPERT is.
So, may we all now GO FISH?
Ummmm......SHEESH!!!!
And wish you all Happy Trails


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Old 06-04-2016, 08:15 PM   #166
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I had logging truck rides and some amazing boob-bouncer rides, and such.

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Tell us more!
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Old 06-04-2016, 08:40 PM   #167
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Cbilodeau, you say these air ride dp cant go outside of highways, i invite you to follow me some of the places i take mine.
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Old 06-04-2016, 08:51 PM   #168
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just got back from picking up my alpine....Smooooooooooooooth
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