Go Back   iRV2 Forums > MOTORHOME FORUMS > Class A Motorhome Discussions
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-01-2016, 11:17 AM   #29
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 3,282
i'm in design right now with a shock absorber manufactor to make a shock for the f53 ... it will have correct valving for compression and rebound

most shocks on the market don't have both.... so what they do is valve the the compression stiffer to control body roll

the real problem here is the cost factor... most will say the problem is not worth the cost to up grade...
__________________

__________________
LVRVLUVR is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 06-01-2016, 11:25 AM   #30
Senior Member
 
SpaceNorman's Avatar
 
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,144
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbilodeau View Post
No it does not come into play given the typical use profile that most DP owners fit. And this is rational.

What is not rational is when everything from a gaser has to be much worst all the time on every thread without being able to simply discuss a functionnality.

We are not talking religion but the difference between a airbag and a shock absorber. Look at them in this thread coming like moskitos with no technical arguments.

Maybe we should start every post with this sentence:

I KNOW A DP IS BETTER NO MATTER THE OWNER PROFILE BUT...
I must have missed the post where somebody said anything about DP's being "better" in this thread.

My comment was definitely not intended to fuel the "DP vs Gasser" fire. I was simply questioning the practical relevance of the shortcomings of an air suspension on rough dirt roads - considering that air suspension is typically only found on large DP coaches and that large DP coaches typically avoid rough dirt roads like the plague.

Your comments about "everything from a gasser has to be much worse ..." and "we're not talking religion...." seem to suggest that this is a sensitive issue for you. I suspect you're ascribing far more "judgmental intent" to the comments regarding diesel pushers than the authors of those comments ever intended themselves.

Just sayin...
__________________

__________________
SpaceNorman
2012 HR Endeavor 43' DFT, 2012 Jeep Liberty
www.penquinhead.com
SpaceNorman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2016, 12:02 PM   #31
Senior Member
 
Coma's Avatar
 
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Emerald Coast
Posts: 1,757
It appears you understand spring rates and the damping thereof as well as you understand the difference between power and torque or how to conduct accurate measurements that are useful and repeatable.

Just more .
__________________
Jim and Jennie, Cats=Bittles and Potter, 2000 Dynasty 350 ISC
2013 Silverado 4x4 Towed with R1200GS in bed.
PROV23:4 Do not wear yourself out to get rich; have the wisdom to show restraint.
Coma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2016, 12:19 PM   #32
Senior Member
 
aauummm's Avatar


 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Altoona, Iowa
Posts: 1,588
Quote:
Originally Posted by CampDaven View Post
Well, no.
I do rough roads at speed and don't feel them. Gonna try a bump-O-meter?


Dave and Nola, RV Mutants
I have a bump-O-meter. She sits in the co-pilot's chair. She lets me know about every bump that I hit!
__________________
2010 Itasca Sunova 33C, mucho mods
2011 Honda CRV, 2004 Rubicon (mucho mods)
aauummm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2016, 12:20 PM   #33
Senior Member
 
Sweetbriar's Avatar
 
Thor Owners Club
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,637
The OP is missing several key points concerning air based suspensions with respect to an RV application.

1. The ride height valves on an RV chassis are not instant height/pressure adjusting. They have a inherent dwell time to prevent a constant readjustment of the individual air pressure due to changes in the road surface. Additionally the small size of the piping used, normally 1/4 to 3/8", will not provide the volume needed for the suspension to quickly react to the changing road surface. With a wash board or poorly maintained road no noticeable changes to bag pressure will occur.

2. Air bags do not increase the load capacity of a given chassis as inferred by the OP. If your axles are rated at XX,XXX pounds adding air bags will not increase that number. What bags will provide is addition lift of the chassis away from the suspension stops to regain the designed chassis height. Supplemental air bags will not and do not increase the GCW capacity. Nothing you can bolt to a chassis will increase the load capacity of the axles.

3. Off Road Vehicles normally don't use them because they are fragile. Put a hole in a bag, blow out a bag, rip out an air line and your day is over.

4. Consumer marketed Class A RVs were not, are not and probably never will be designed to be driven on unimproved roads. There are a few specially designed and individually built rigs that can just about go anywhere but the builders are not targeting the consumer RV market with their product. Complaining about the poor performance of a given coach on fire roads or logging trails is a bit much considering the coach was never design for such an environment.

My coach - 2006 Ford F53 WITH supplemental, on the fly adjustable air bags at each corner. Did the bags change my ride quality? Some but not much. The biggest improvement was restoring correct ride height for a given load. Do I adjust the air pressure while on the move? Twice in two years. Once was a steady cross wind and the second was a very high and long road crown.

Everything about our rigs is a compromise in some form. From modified truck chassis, using head light assemblies from other vehicles to short queen mattresses. Sure I would like a perfectly smooth ride but I know it will never happen. On any given trip less than a 20% of the time out with the coach is spent behind the wheel on the move. I'm more interested in how to make the 80% better.
__________________
Sweetbriar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2016, 01:02 PM   #34
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 3,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetbriar View Post
The OP is missing several key points concerning air based suspensions with respect to an RV application.

1. The ride height valves on an RV chassis are not instant height/pressure adjusting. They have a inherent dwell time to prevent a constant readjustment of the individual air pressure due to changes in the road surface. Additionally the small size of the piping used, normally 1/4 to 3/8", will not provide the volume needed for the suspension to quickly react to the changing road surface. With a wash board or poorly maintained road no noticeable changes to bag pressure will occur.

2. Air bags do not increase the load capacity of a given chassis as inferred by the OP. If your axles are rated at XX,XXX pounds adding air bags will not increase that number. What bags will provide is addition lift of the chassis away from the suspension stops to regain the designed chassis height. Supplemental air bags will not and do not increase the GCW capacity. Nothing you can bolt to a chassis will increase the load capacity of the axles.

3. Off Road Vehicles normally don't use them because they are fragile. Put a hole in a bag, blow out a bag, rip out an air line and your day is over.

4. Consumer marketed Class A RVs were not, are not and probably never will be designed to be driven on unimproved roads. There are a few specially designed and individually built rigs that can just about go anywhere but the builders are not targeting the consumer RV market with their product. Complaining about the poor performance of a given coach on fire roads or logging trails is a bit much considering the coach was never design for such an environment.

My coach - 2006 Ford F53 WITH supplemental, on the fly adjustable air bags at each corner. Did the bags change my ride quality? Some but not much. The biggest improvement was restoring correct ride height for a given load. Do I adjust the air pressure while on the move? Twice in two years. Once was a steady cross wind and the second was a very high and long road crown.

Everything about our rigs is a compromise in some form. From modified truck chassis, using head light assemblies from other vehicles to short queen mattresses. Sure I would like a perfectly smooth ride but I know it will never happen. On any given trip less than a 20% of the time out with the coach is spent behind the wheel on the move. I'm more interested in how to make the 80% better.
good post... lots of facts... more problems arise on the road from vegas to so-cal.... some of the repairs are just crazy... I think the bridge ramps that would put you air born were purposely done to slow down traffic..

I think you read into my post different than I intended

and it would be helpful if you quoted were I did the post to your reply
__________________
LVRVLUVR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2016, 03:10 PM   #35
Senior Member
 
Sweetbriar's Avatar
 
Thor Owners Club
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,637
Quote:
Originally Posted by LVRVLUVR View Post
so...
here's why after market air bags work better than factory installed automatic air ride...

the driver is in control . and the very best you can get in air ride will never match spring suspension..

what air ride is,...it is cheeper.. in fact so much cheeper that chassis builders won't even consider the use of multi stage long travel springs...

on an add on air bag chassis you can add air for gcw... and keep it at that level on bumpy roads... or even let alittle out to make it smooth

can't do that with an air bag chassis
Hopefully the lawyers from Firestone won't be knocking on my door anytime soon for quoting from their web site but here goes -

"Q Does this allow my truck to carry more weight?
Absolutely not. Only the vehicle manufacturer can set the GVWR. Even with the air springs, you have the same brakes, axles, bearings and frame stiffness which in part determine the vehicles load capability. The Ride- Rite air helper springs simply allow you to carry the maximum capacity of your truck more comfortably and without suspension sag and the poor handling that comes with it."

Here's the link if you want to read it yourself -

http://riderite.com/installation-sup...sked-questions

I can add or release air from my after market airbags from the driver's seat but I have no way of knowing if the coach is level to the axles or what my ride height might be. A modern RV chassis with air bags does and does it automatically. Add 60 gallons of gasoline and I'll need to find a measuring stick. Add 60 gallons of diesel and the owners does nothing.

Adding air does not smooth out the road. I know because I've tried it. If fact if I get the pressures too high the ride actually gets worse.

How does the driver maintain correct ride height with multi stage long travel springs while in motion?
__________________
Sweetbriar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2016, 03:21 PM   #36
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Elko, Nv
Posts: 492
Offroad trucks will use air suspension as soon a they can make it reliable. Modern motocross bikes are using air instead of springs now. I drive 4+ miles of washboard road to my house and one of the places we frequent is 35 mi of crappy road and my DP handles it great. Just because you dont think it works, doesn't mean it doessnt work for others.
__________________
NevadaNick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2016, 03:26 PM   #37
Senior Member
 
skypilot_1's Avatar
 
Tiffin Owners Club
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Summer in The Ozarks
Posts: 772
Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot_1 View Post
Maybe next you could post a test drive with a "G" meter. That would be informative and scientific. You know "iron versus air". Forget what you think you feel, but have a "meter" tell you how smooth it is. Whole new area for your
"measurement of the proper instrument is used..as personal descriptions are meaningless".


"Air bag suspension truth and facts..."

You actually did it..good for you. They need all the input they can get !
__________________
__________________
Ret. Military/Corporate Pilot
Key West Snowbirds
"Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter"
skypilot_1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2016, 04:18 PM   #38
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 3,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetbriar View Post
Hopefully the lawyers from Firestone won't be knocking on my door anytime soon for quoting from their web site but here goes -

"Q Does this allow my truck to carry more weight?
Absolutely not. Only the vehicle manufacturer can set the GVWR. Even with the air springs, you have the same brakes, axles, bearings and frame stiffness which in part determine the vehicles load capability. The Ride- Rite air helper springs simply allow you to carry the maximum capacity of your truck more comfortably and without suspension sag and the poor handling that comes with it."

Here's the link if you want to read it yourself -

http://riderite.com/installation-sup...sked-questions

I can add or release air from my after market airbags from the driver's seat but I have no way of knowing if the coach is level to the axles or what my ride height might be. A modern RV chassis with air bags does and does it automatically. Add 60 gallons of gasoline and I'll need to find a measuring stick. Add 60 gallons of diesel and the owners does nothing.

Adding air does not smooth out the road. I know because I've tried it. If fact if I get the pressures too high the ride actually gets worse.

How does the driver maintain correct ride height with multi stage long travel springs while in motion?
when we bag trucks at the shop... we take the springs out



lol....
https://youtu.be/8K5iBzSPSw4
__________________
LVRVLUVR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2016, 04:38 PM   #40
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 3,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by NevadaNick View Post
Offroad trucks will use air suspension as soon a they can make it reliable. Modern motocross bikes are using air instead of springs now. I drive 4+ miles of washboard road to my house and one of the places we frequent is 35 mi of crappy road and my DP handles it great. Just because you dont think it works, doesn't mean it doessnt work for others.
i didn't say anywhere that it doesn't .. if if didn't work they would still be on the lot

what would be cool is if you would go pro the suspension on your coach bomb'n the wash board road...
__________________
LVRVLUVR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2016, 05:39 PM   #41
Senior Member
 
cbilodeau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Montreal
Posts: 957
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetbriar View Post
The OP is missing several key points concerning air based suspensions with respect to an RV application.

1. The ride height valves on an RV chassis are not instant height/pressure adjusting. They have a inherent dwell time to prevent a constant readjustment of the individual air pressure due to changes in the road surface. Additionally the small size of the piping used, normally 1/4 to 3/8", will not provide the volume needed for the suspension to quickly react to the changing road surface. With a wash board or poorly maintained road no noticeable changes to bag pressure will occur.

2. Air bags do not increase the load capacity of a given chassis as inferred by the OP. If your axles are rated at XX,XXX pounds adding air bags will not increase that number. What bags will provide is addition lift of the chassis away from the suspension stops to regain the designed chassis height. Supplemental air bags will not and do not increase the GCW capacity. Nothing you can bolt to a chassis will increase the load capacity of the axles.

3. Off Road Vehicles normally don't use them because they are fragile. Put a hole in a bag, blow out a bag, rip out an air line and your day is over.

4. Consumer marketed Class A RVs were not, are not and probably never will be designed to be driven on unimproved roads. There are a few specially designed and individually built rigs that can just about go anywhere but the builders are not targeting the consumer RV market with their product. Complaining about the poor performance of a given coach on fire roads or logging trails is a bit much considering the coach was never design for such an environment.

My coach - 2006 Ford F53 WITH supplemental, on the fly adjustable air bags at each corner. Did the bags change my ride quality? Some but not much. The biggest improvement was restoring correct ride height for a given load. Do I adjust the air pressure while on the move? Twice in two years. Once was a steady cross wind and the second was a very high and long road crown.

Everything about our rigs is a compromise in some form. From modified truck chassis, using head light assemblies from other vehicles to short queen mattresses. Sure I would like a perfectly smooth ride but I know it will never happen. On any given trip less than a 20% of the time out with the coach is spent behind the wheel on the move. I'm more interested in how to make the 80% better.
You gave 4 cons but forgot to give 4 pros. A lot of people have probably of lot of experience but if their only motivation to post is to show the singer is not as good as they are then they are simply working to stop the free show.

The OP is talking much more about Gasser suspension VS DP than off-road for an RV. He is using his off-road experience to help the newbies like me understand. And it is useful.

Anybody should know the GVWR can not "officially" be changed by a component. I would still be interested in a component that exceed the OEM specs. I don't see the point here.

I will start writing for you:

I can confirm the OP is right about 4 subjects:

1 - DP shorter suspention travel...

2 - Spring

3 -

4 -
__________________
Carl
Fleetwood Pace Arrow vision 36.5 on Ford F53 1999 gas, V10, 6.8l with 4R100 Transmission
cbilodeau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2016, 05:52 PM   #42
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 3,282
heres a winnabago off road...look how smooth and well it handle the off road

__________________

__________________
LVRVLUVR is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
suspension



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The truth and facts about noise level in gas RV's vs DP's.. LVRVLUVR Class A Motorhome Discussions 200 08-25-2016 07:42 AM
To Air Bag or Not To Air Bag iawoody2 Trailer Towing and Tow Vehicles Discussion 4 05-15-2013 05:25 AM
Air Bag problems (suspension) and trick pumper9x9 Country Coach Owners Forum 5 05-01-2013 10:25 AM
After market air bag suspension on W22 georgem37303 Workhorse and Chevrolet Chassis Motorhome Forum 4 10-09-2009 07:18 PM

» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.