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Old 06-03-2016, 06:43 AM   #99
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Good looking rig but as a summer weekender I'll stick with my bargain basement gasser that fits my camping schedule and budget. Someday though. Got my eye on a 36' Tiffin Phaeton with automatic ride height air suspension.


By the way what is behind the vented lower door behind the rear axle on the driver's side?
That's the ac condenser with electric fan. Couldn't pass this deal, bought last day Navistar sold to ASV and got 40% MSRP.
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Old 06-03-2016, 07:43 AM   #100
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Has the MaxxForce engine ?
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Old 06-03-2016, 09:15 AM   #101
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Has the MaxxForce engine ?
Yes, MF10. No DEF required. Wet sleeve with roller lifters and lower bridge. 1250 ft lbs. Engine has been around Navistar for years before buying Monaco. At 40K lbs I get about 9.5 MPG. Great engine.
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Old 06-03-2016, 12:38 PM   #102
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Found this write up and agree with everything it states. I have been an ASE Master Tech for 40 years and have driven everything from the smallest car to the largest truck. I own a DP with air bag suspension and while it isn't perfect it blows the doors off of springs and shackles.

Three basic types of suspensions are used in Class A motorhomes. They are leaf/coil steel-springs, air bags, and torsion bars. Within each category there are various methods of positioning components that effect the weight capacity and handling characteristics. This FAQ will describe the basic differences between these suspensions. Before we start, it is interesting to note that no modern over-the-road bus chassis use spring suspensions. Most school buses use leaf spring suspensions. Most light and medium duty trucks use spring suspensions. After you read this article, you will understand why this is true.

LEAF/COIL SPRING suspensions are the least expensive and the hardest riding. Handling on the highway is significantly affected by crosswinds or the wind forces created when an 18 wheeler blows by the motorhome. The close mechanical coupling between the axles and the frame of the motorhome transmits noise, vibration, and side forces. Except for small rubber or plastic bushings, there is a steel to steel connection. The bumps in the road are transmitted directly into the chassis of the coach and neither sound nor vibration is dampened. To see the worst case in the ride characteristics of this type of suspension, find a way to take a ride in the rear seats of a school bus. Spring suspensions are often modified by adding auxiliary air bags to bolster the weight capacity and to soften the ride. After-market steering stabilizer and sway bars are frequently added to increase highway directional stability and reduce tipping. Spring suspensions have significant leaning when turning corners and very hard riding over bumpy roads. Leaf springs eventually sag and require added leafs to correct the ride height, especially from side to side. Because most roads are crowned to let rain water run off, driving many miles on a slant causes the passenger side to eventually sag. The older the motorhome the greater the chance for the necessity for this repair.

AIR BAG suspensions can be four air bags or eight airbags and significantly soften the ride characteristics. Air bag suspensions use automatic pressure regulators on side-to-side and front-to-rear to dynamically adjust the air pressure in each air bag to compensate for the tipping forces the coach is experiencing. Thus while turning a corner, the outside air bags are automatically inflated to compensate for the leaning of the coach. The vehicle thus goes through corners and through high side winds with far less tipping motion. Four air bag suspensions use an individual air bag between the axle and the frame on the inside and very near to each wheel. Solid axles are called "live axles" and are one piece and ridged. Both Spartan and Freightliner now offer front independent suspensions systems that use an air bag inside an A-frame supporting each front wheel. This independence allows each front tire to follow the terrain that it faces and thus results in a smoother and more stable ride than a live axle suspension. Independent front suspensions have been used in automobiles since the 1940's but have only recently found their way into motorhomes and some passenger buses. Eight air bag suspensions have an axle carriage that allows two airbags to be placed above and to the front and rear of each wheel. The result is much greater side-to-side support and less tipping than a four-bag system. Since the ride height is automatically and dynamically adjusted, there is never any sagging. Airbags can develop leaks or blow out, but they are relatively inexpensive to replace. Airbag suspensions are much more compliant to side-wind conditions and the resulting sway. The softness can sometimes cause porpoise(ing) like action while driving on undulating roadways. This is normally dampened properly by shock absorbers. Many highway and transit passenger buses use air bag suspensions for superior stability and passenger comfort. When parked, it is possible to dump the air out of the airbags and lower the coach for easier egress. Some more sophisticated systems can also raise and lower the ride height while traveling down the road. The driver can lower the whole coach while traveling on a flat interstate or raise it up to negotiate a steep driveway. The air in the bags significantly reduces the noise and vibration transmitted from road surfaces.

TORSION BAR suspensions use a steel bar in a sleeve connected to a lever arm to provide the up and down action. Newer torsion bars are encased in hard rubber inside the sleeve to further buffer the road noise and vibration between the axle and the chassis. Eagle passenger buses made this suspension famous and many entertainers will only use Eagle buses for touring because of their ride characteristics. Torsion bar suspensions are less effected by porpoise(ing) and have excellent resistance to tipping. Foretravel and Safari are the major motorhome builders that use or have used this suspension system. Ride-height is adjusted by loosening the lever arm and twisting the bar with special tools and then tightening the arm. Adjustment is limited and when the bar ages, replacement is relatively expensive. Torsion bar suspensions are used on some travel providing lower ride levels and thus a lower center of gravity. Torsion bars are used in some automobiles and light duty trucks.
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Old 06-03-2016, 12:40 PM   #103
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Are you looking for windows in the bath or the walk in closet which take up the last 10 or so feet of the coach behind the rear axle.


We would need a motorhome magasine with real rational journalists that would not only show the products, but also bring some critics about where the industrie is going. It does not make sense.

If I give you 300k to build a coach, don't tell me I will have less window than a typical car and that I will be in a container.
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Old 06-03-2016, 01:21 PM   #104
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Found this write up and agree with everything it states. I have been an ASE Master Tech for 40 years and have driven everything from the smallest car to the largest truck. I own a DP with air bag suspension and while it isn't perfect it blows the doors off of springs and shackles.

Three basic types of suspensions are used in Class A motorhomes. They are leaf/coil steel-springs, air bags, and torsion bars. Within each category there are various methods of positioning components that effect the weight capacity and handling characteristics. This FAQ will describe the basic differences between these suspensions. Before we start, it is interesting to note that no modern over-the-road bus chassis use spring suspensions. Most school buses use leaf spring suspensions. Most light and medium duty trucks use spring suspensions. After you read this article, you will understand why this is true.

LEAF/COIL SPRING suspensions are the least expensive and the hardest riding. Handling on the highway is significantly affected by crosswinds or the wind forces created when an 18 wheeler blows by the motorhome. The close mechanical coupling between the axles and the frame of the motorhome transmits noise, vibration, and side forces. Except for small rubber or plastic bushings, there is a steel to steel connection. The bumps in the road are transmitted directly into the chassis of the coach and neither sound nor vibration is dampened. To see the worst case in the ride characteristics of this type of suspension, find a way to take a ride in the rear seats of a school bus. Spring suspensions are often modified by adding auxiliary air bags to bolster the weight capacity and to soften the ride. After-market steering stabilizer and sway bars are frequently added to increase highway directional stability and reduce tipping. Spring suspensions have significant leaning when turning corners and very hard riding over bumpy roads. Leaf springs eventually sag and require added leafs to correct the ride height, especially from side to side. Because most roads are crowned to let rain water run off, driving many miles on a slant causes the passenger side to eventually sag. The older the motorhome the greater the chance for the necessity for this repair.

AIR BAG suspensions can be four air bags or eight airbags and significantly soften the ride characteristics. Air bag suspensions use automatic pressure regulators on side-to-side and front-to-rear to dynamically adjust the air pressure in each air bag to compensate for the tipping forces the coach is experiencing. Thus while turning a corner, the outside air bags are automatically inflated to compensate for the leaning of the coach. The vehicle thus goes through corners and through high side winds with far less tipping motion. Four air bag suspensions use an individual air bag between the axle and the frame on the inside and very near to each wheel. Solid axles are called "live axles" and are one piece and ridged. Both Spartan and Freightliner now offer front independent suspensions systems that use an air bag inside an A-frame supporting each front wheel. This independence allows each front tire to follow the terrain that it faces and thus results in a smoother and more stable ride than a live axle suspension. Independent front suspensions have been used in automobiles since the 1940's but have only recently found their way into motorhomes and some passenger buses. Eight air bag suspensions have an axle carriage that allows two airbags to be placed above and to the front and rear of each wheel. The result is much greater side-to-side support and less tipping than a four-bag system. Since the ride height is automatically and dynamically adjusted, there is never any sagging. Airbags can develop leaks or blow out, but they are relatively inexpensive to replace. Airbag suspensions are much more compliant to side-wind conditions and the resulting sway. The softness can sometimes cause porpoise(ing) like action while driving on undulating roadways. This is normally dampened properly by shock absorbers. Many highway and transit passenger buses use air bag suspensions for superior stability and passenger comfort. When parked, it is possible to dump the air out of the airbags and lower the coach for easier egress. Some more sophisticated systems can also raise and lower the ride height while traveling down the road. The driver can lower the whole coach while traveling on a flat interstate or raise it up to negotiate a steep driveway. The air in the bags significantly reduces the noise and vibration transmitted from road surfaces.

TORSION BAR suspensions use a steel bar in a sleeve connected to a lever arm to provide the up and down action. Newer torsion bars are encased in hard rubber inside the sleeve to further buffer the road noise and vibration between the axle and the chassis. Eagle passenger buses made this suspension famous and many entertainers will only use Eagle buses for touring because of their ride characteristics. Torsion bar suspensions are less effected by porpoise(ing) and have excellent resistance to tipping. Foretravel and Safari are the major motorhome builders that use or have used this suspension system. Ride-height is adjusted by loosening the lever arm and twisting the bar with special tools and then tightening the arm. Adjustment is limited and when the bar ages, replacement is relatively expensive. Torsion bar suspensions are used on some travel providing lower ride levels and thus a lower center of gravity. Torsion bars are used in some automobiles and light duty trucks.
This is more a publicity than anything else. Only cons for the leaf spring. Only the pros for the air bags.

How come they don't talk about what our expert here explained so well? The lenght of the shock absorber give a better handling on bumps.

Could DP owners let us have a rational technical discussion. I know people paid a lot of money but still could we talk about the truth just once.

This is what they do in the campground all day long when they talk to me but please, give me a break.

A sport car with an airbag could be very good on the best highways but still the wheel travel is so short that each bump would remember you the limits. But for sure if I see a sport car seller he will show me video and texts that don't talk about other road than the best highways. A motorhome typically is for camping with the kids in national parks, near the beach, in mountains area.

But if you want to make me believe a motorhome has to be like a delivered container on wheels it won't work.

Since they sell those things more than 300k, for sure they will give you good publicity. But don't listen to it. You can not go where it is fun to be because they make you believe it is better without a real suspension, it is better without LP, it is impossible to create a stove with LP and electricity, it is not possible to connect an external LP 30 pounds tank on your onboard one, they can not supply openings windows, etc. They want you to beleive that if you are not in a campground the generator has to run all day long to be able to do anything like heating, charging the batteries, etc, etc. With my 900 watts solar panels and my LP tank we run the generator about once a week when dry camping and they can not put it as a basic component on a 300k or 500k motorhome????

Life can not be like on the film Wall-E, we need to be free:



We need some more critics here. The day I will spend 300k on a DP, could it be able to run it in the snow and the salt on the road? My friend has a big Allegro pusher. He can not drive in the winter like we do for our cars because of the salt but always talk about his heating system. COMEEEEE ONNNNN. Can we be rational a minute please.
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Old 06-03-2016, 02:18 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by cbilodeau View Post


We would need a motorhome magasine with real rational journalists that would not only show the products, but also bring some critics about where the industrie is going. It does not make sense.

If I give you 300k to build a coach, don't tell me I will have less window than a typical car and that I will be in a container.
OK, but are you going to answer the question regarding if you want the window in the bathroom or the walk in closet?

Normally a bath has a pretty large sky light to provide illumination while maintaining privacy. If will also have roof vents. Adding a window to a closet could cause fading of clothing from the sun and the associated loss of wall mounted storage area. Personally I wouldn't want a window in either. I normally do not spend much time in either place so the need really isn't there and a window just adds addition points for a water leak. The front living area farther forward has the normal amount of window area, on both sides. And the bedroom has a window on the opposite side that is pretty much the standard bedroom window size.

How many Pros did I just provide?
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Old 06-03-2016, 02:28 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by cbilodeau View Post


We would need a motorhome magasine with real rational journalists that would not only show the products, but also bring some critics about where the industrie is going. It does not make sense.

If I give you 300k to build a coach, don't tell me I will have less window than a typical car and that I will be in a container.
It's not uncommon for slides to have windows in their sidewalls rather than their outside walls. My slides have windows in each "side" wall area. My bedroom goes from having one window with the slide in to three with the slide out. My salon/galley area goes from four windows to six when the slide goes out. I don't know about that HR specifically though. For all I know it really could be a crypt on wheels.
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Old 06-03-2016, 03:36 PM   #107
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This is more a publicity than anything else. Only cons for the leaf spring. Only the pros for the air bags.

How come they don't talk about what our expert here explained so well? The lenght of the shock absorber give a better handling on bumps.

Could DP owners let us have a rational technical discussion. I know people paid a lot of money but still could we talk about the truth just once.

This is what they do in the campground all day long when they talk to me but please, give me a break.

A sport car with an airbag could be very good on the best highways but still the wheel travel is so short that each bump would remember you the limits. But for sure if I see a sport car seller he will show me video and texts that don't talk about other road than the best highways. A motorhome typically is for camping with the kids in national parks, near the beach, in mountains area.

But if you want to make me believe a motorhome has to be like a delivered container on wheels it won't work.

Since they sell those things more than 300k, for sure they will give you good publicity. But don't listen to it. You can not go where it is fun to be because they make you believe it is better without a real suspension, it is better without LP, it is impossible to create a stove with LP and electricity, it is not possible to connect an external LP 30 pounds tank on your onboard one, they can not supply openings windows, etc. They want you to beleive that if you are not in a campground the generator has to run all day long to be able to do anything like heating, charging the batteries, etc, etc. With my 900 watts solar panels and my LP tank we run the generator about once a week when dry camping and they can not put it as a basic component on a 300k or 500k motorhome????

Life can not be like on the film Wall-E, we need to be free:



We need some more critics here. The day I will spend 300k on a DP, could it be able to run it in the snow and the salt on the road? My friend has a big Allegro pusher. He can not drive in the winter like we do for our cars because of the salt but always talk about his heating system. COMEEEEE ONNNNN. Can we be rational a minute please.
The only person who believes LVRVLVR is an expert, aside from himself, is you. He is a self proclaimed expert.

I don't know, I did notice a con in there about air ride, maybe take the chip off your shoulder and re-read and you'll see it.

BTW, an airbag replaces the spring in a suspension system, not the shock absorber. The limits of suspension travel however are usually engineered into a system and then the components chosen to accommodate them. There are luxury SUVs on the market that come from the factory with air ride, not exactly a "short travel" application. The engineers determine how much travel will be needed based on intended application and build to it.

What kind of rational discussion compares driving a large RV on snow and ice to driving a car on snow and ice? Seriously? If the big rigs are running your RV should be fine. However, do you want to clean the salt out of your chassis? Do you want to risk sliding off the road, or having a large truck slide into you? Back home there were two types of weather that would make us cringe, cold winter nights after wet days and stormy fall days. The cold nights would inevitably lead to black ice, resulting in our lot being full of people who ran off the road because they though AWD would be impervious to black ice. The storms brought floods which inevitable lead to people thinking "it's not that deep" right before they hydro-locked their motor or shorted a control module. Yay.

Your whole post is just riddled with straw men. Can't do anything without the generator? What? That's what the house batteries and inverter are for. No LP fridge? Well, maybe a rash of LP fridge caused coach fires has pushed people towards electric fridges, which cool better, cost less, and provide more interior space relative to their footprint. You can still boondock with one too, it's not like they run all day. No solar? Huh? Many coaches come pre-wired for solar, or can be ordered with it. Overall, boondocking simply isn't that common, with most RVers choosing to stay at campgrounds or parks with hook-ups. Yet if every coach were outfitted to boondock you'd be complaining about paying for stuff hardly anyone uses.
BTW, here's a video of the RVGeeks boondocking at Trona in their big Newmar DP. Whoa! Off roading in a DP. Say it ain't so.
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Old 06-03-2016, 03:37 PM   #108
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you for one know exact what i'm say',,

is the ride in your discovery the same as your excursion?
No, Discovery is 10 X better. Of course I don't go 4 wheeling' with mine.
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Old 06-03-2016, 04:01 PM   #109
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Would that be a Land Rover Discovery or a Ford Excursion? I'm a bit partial to the Ford. Land Rover is a bit beyond my vehicle budget.
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Old 06-03-2016, 04:12 PM   #110
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The "air" is getting a bit thick on this thread. Maybe take the rhetoric down a notch?
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Old 06-03-2016, 04:20 PM   #111
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Yeah right. The builders of the finest motorhomes on the road put lousy air suspension under them, when they could use the same suspension system installed on a Yugo.
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Old 06-03-2016, 04:35 PM   #112
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We would need a motorhome magasine with real rational journalists that would not only show the products, but also bring some critics about where the industrie is going. It does not make sense.

If I give you 300k to build a coach, don't tell me I will have less window than a typical car and that I will be in a container.
All my slides have windows on both ends. I guess they used all the glass they had when they built the large single piece panaramic 8 ft by 4 ft windshield in the living space and the glass fireplace front and couldn't find more glass.
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