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Old 11-12-2013, 06:07 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Argosy View Post
Your link and the OP's drawing are electrically the same. The link has the batteries side by side while the OP's are vertical, but the power and ground both come off one set of batteries in each diagram.

If you're trying to balance resistance swapping the ground to the other set will be an improvement.

Even better would be to use an equal length ground for each battery individually and use a common + feed with equal length cables to the + of each battery.
The original illustration does not depict which battery set is actually attached to the coach.

With only 2 12V equivalent batteries the only cable lngths you want to be the same are the ones between the batteries and they will likely be based on how they sit in the tray, or they will be very close. If you have 3 or more 12V equivalents you should run each battery to a common positive and negative battery bnk using equal length interconnecting cables. I have 6 12V batteries and that's how I wired mine. This is also how most yachts are wired. Not only does it improve the effectiveness of the bank, it allows for easy battery isolation.
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Old 11-13-2013, 10:51 PM   #16
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All the original poster wanted to do was to make sure he had his batteries hooked back up right. I can not imagine why we are starting this big discussion on where the batteries are hooked up to make sure they charge and discharge correctly. To be honest with the size wires and distances you are talking about when you hook series parallel connections together in a MH you will probably not find .001 ohms difference between the cables. I know someone is going to tell me that there ohm meter shows more than that but I am going to be surprised if many people have an ohmmeter that is accurate enough to tell for sure. I was not trying to say anything negative about the picture that was originally put up. I thought for someone like me that does not do as well off of diagrams that a narrative telling you which post went where and how many connections each had would be helpful. It was my intent that between the diagram that was posted and my narrative that would help pretty much anyone that was trying to hook up the circuit and give the OP some options. Why don't we just let the poor guy hook up his batteries and not try to redesign the circuit for him with all the confusion that will give him.
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Old 11-13-2013, 10:56 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by gemini5362 View Post
All the original poster wanted to do was to make sure he had his batteries hooked back up right. I can not imagine why we are starting this big discussion on where the batteries are hooked up to make sure they charge and discharge correctly. To be honest with the size wires and distances you are talking about when you hook series parallel connections together in a MH you will probably not find .001 ohms difference between the cables. I know someone is going to tell me that there ohm meter shows more than that but I am going to be surprised if many people have an ohmmeter that is accurate enough to tell for sure. I was not trying to say anything negative about the picture that was originally put up. I thought for someone like me that does not do as well off of diagrams that a narrative telling you which post went where and how many connections each had would be helpful. It was my intent that between the diagram that was posted and my narrative that would help pretty much anyone that was trying to hook up the circuit and give the OP some options. Why don't we just let the poor guy hook up his batteries and not try to redesign the circuit for him with all the confusion that will give him.
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Old 11-14-2013, 05:43 AM   #18
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?..Why don't we just let the poor guy hook up his batteries and not try to redesign the circuit for him with all the confusion that will give him.
Yes, let's do just that. Let me assume for a moment that Travel Supreme uses best practices and hooked the batteries up as they should be. The first illustration simply doesn't clearly illustrate which battery the coach cables should be connected to. The written description that follower isn't the way a battery or charger manufacturers should recommend. I simply provided an illustration of the correct method. Hopefully, this isn't a redesign for Travel Supreme. It wasn't until I was asked why that more specifics were provided. I kept it simple so anyone could just hook up their batteries and go.
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Old 11-14-2013, 09:14 AM   #19
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Yes, let's do just that. Let me assume for a moment that Travel Supreme uses best practices and hooked the batteries up as they should be. The first illustration simply doesn't clearly illustrate which battery the coach cables should be connected to. The written description that follower isn't the way a battery or charger manufacturers should recommend. I simply provided an illustration of the correct method. Hopefully, this isn't a redesign for Travel Supreme. It wasn't until I was asked why that more specifics were provided. I kept it simple so anyone could just hook up their batteries and go.
The difference between your link and the original diagram is the addition of the word "to" at the polarity identification. Lets assume a person is wise enough to know cables go "to".

The physical position of the batteries relative to each other in the two diagrams is different, but both are electrically the same, follow the cables. Both diagrams use positive and negative connections to the coach from the batteries of the same bank paralleling the batteries of the second bank to these connections.

If you want to improve charging/discharging because of resistance the + cable to the coach needs to attach to one set of batteries, the - cable should be attached to the other set of batteries. Or both banks need to have separate equal length + and - cables to electrically common points.
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Old 11-14-2013, 10:27 AM   #20
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The difference between your link and the original diagram is the addition of the word "to" at the polarity identification. Lets assume a person is wise enough to know cables go "to"....
Because you know how to correctly connect the coach cables to the batteries you are seeing something in the original picture that simply isn't there. The picture with the 6V batteries doesn't which set of batteries to actually attached the coach batteries to. Each battery terminal only shows a single cable connection. The link I provided was to clear that up.
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Old 11-14-2013, 11:18 AM   #21
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HI
I have just got a 40ft 2002 travel supreme Diesel.
I pulled out the battery tray and it tipped out due to the back bolts being done.
my problem is how do I re-connect the batteries in order and are they 6 volt ?
I know I need a manual on this model.
Can some one help me
ken

Did you get your batteries hooked back up. If you still are having problems if you want to call me I will walk you through it.
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Old 11-14-2013, 11:32 AM   #22
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ImagineIF:

I looked for some of the websites you mentioned to prove your statement I did not find them can you please Post them as links or email them to me.

I believe that where you hook up to the series parallel circuit as long as you hook up to the 12 volt battery equivalent really does not matter. When you hook the two twelve volt equivalent series batteries together that effectively makes one 12 volt battery. when we connect the coach to the connection point of the parallel circuits the coach is drawing off of all 4 batteries. I do not have a way of measuring the temps but I believe if you disconnect one of the sets of 12 volt batteries. Let the remaining set discharge down to 11 volts then hook the other set back up you will see the connection point read 12 volts. IF you leave them hooked up like that long enough depending on the internal resistance of the batteries they will finally stabilize out to a reading of between 11 and 12 volts.

As I indicated in an earlier post the resistance of the cables we are connecting with are so low as to be negligible when you are computing the current draw of which batteries you are using.

If I ran equal length and equal size cables from each of the 12 volt battery set to the point where the Coach cable hooks up to the fuse in line with the coach batteries. Which set of 12 volt would batteries would discharge most and heat up to use your analagy.
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Old 11-14-2013, 01:40 PM   #23
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Because you know how to correctly connect the coach cables to the batteries you are seeing something in the original picture that simply isn't there. The picture with the 6V batteries doesn't which set of batteries to actually attached the coach batteries to. Each battery terminal only shows a single cable connection. The link I provided was to clear that up.
If you are going to keep insisting that your way is correct, then you should know that the diagram in your posted LINK is also wrong according to the purists.

In the diagram, the negative cable to the load should be connected to the lower battery to keep the positive and negative paths the same electrical length and resistance. Without that distinction, you are saying the same thing as everyone else.
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Old 11-14-2013, 02:59 PM   #24
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If you are going to keep insisting that your way is correct, then you should know that the diagram in your posted LINK is also wrong according to the purists.

In the diagram, the negative cable to the load should be connected to the lower battery to keep the positive and negative paths the same electrical length and resistance. Without that distinction, you are saying the same thing as everyone else.
Those so called purist are simply wrong. The cable lengths attached to a battery bank from your chassis or house loads is immaterial. A purist would make sure the cables interconnecting the 2 6V batteries together is the same. They would also make sure the cables connecting the 2 12 sets in parallel are the same.

Here's a very informative article that explains each method of connecting batteries in parallel. The series 6V pairs is simple; just make the interconnecting cables the same length.

SmartGauge Electronics - Interconnecting multiple batteries to form one larger bank

BTW, a purist would say that regardless of the details in getting the resistance between batteries the same, there will be some differences in internal resistance between cells. They will say the best you can do and don't agonize over internal cell resistance differences. Internal cell differences is why it's highly recommended that all batteries in a bank be changed out at the same time.
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Old 11-14-2013, 03:08 PM   #25
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...If I ran equal length and equal size cables from each of the 12 volt battery set to the point where the Coach cable hooks up to the fuse in line with the coach batteries. Which set of 12 volt would batteries would discharge most and heat up to use your analagy.
See the link requested in the other post.

If I'm following you correctly you are really describing the most effective method. If you are saying that that each 12V battery set is individually connected to the 12V positive terminals and 12V load with equal length cables of the same gauge and the same can be said for the Negative battery set terminals and the negative side of the demand, then you have described a buss bar application. In this application, the battery temperatures will only vary based on the ambient temperature (a battery above a battery in a semi-sealed contained may be slightly warmer) or the difference in internal resistance of each cell and their interconnections.
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Old 11-14-2013, 03:46 PM   #26
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Those so called purist are simply wrong. The cable lengths attached to a battery bank from your chassis or house loads is immaterial. A purist would make sure the cables interconnecting the 2 6V batteries together is the same. They would also make sure the cables connecting the 2 12 sets in parallel are the same.

Here's a very informative article that explains each method of connecting batteries in parallel. The series 6V pairs is simple; just make the interconnecting cables the same length.

SmartGauge Electronics - Interconnecting multiple batteries to form one larger bank

BTW, a purist would say that regardless of the details in getting the resistance between batteries the same, there will be some differences in internal resistance between cells. They will say the best you can do and don't agonize over internal cell resistance differences. Internal cell differences is why it's highly recommended that all batteries in a bank be changed out at the same time.
You contradict your own statements with the linked article, (which we've all seen a hundred times). Look again, at the first two examples in the article, and note the current contribution figures from each individual battery. They are more balanced in the second configuration, and that's all I pointed out in my critique of your previous link. DUH! Follow the path from load to ground through each battery pair in the second example and you will see that it is balanced.

As for the statement highlighted in red, the length of the connecting cables from both the load, and the charging source, through the batteries to ground need to be balanced for each battery string in a set within the bank. SO, that length is NOT immaterial. My original point, again. (overall length would effect performance, but is not germane to this discussion.)

If you are going to say that one set of cables must be balanced, then you can't discount or ignore the others. You can't have it both ways.
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Old 11-14-2013, 04:25 PM   #27
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Loulong,

We are either talking past each other, which it doesn't really sound like we are, or let's just agree to disagree.

-- Cable lengths between 12V batteries ideally will be the same.
-- Cable lengths between series connected 6V batteries ideally are the same and have nothing to do with the previously mentioned cables.
-- The cables (positive and Negative) that attached to the battery bank from the load don't need to be the same length. In fact, if they did it would have to be from each 12V load. This is simply not the case.

I know what I'm talking about and have been doing this for too many years to count. If I'm not being clear I apologize. I can't add anything I haven't already said, so this is my last post on the topic.
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Old 11-14-2013, 05:48 PM   #28
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Loulong, We are either talking past each other, which it doesn't really sound like we are, or let's just agree to disagree.

-- Cable lengths between 12V batteries ideally will be the same.
-- Cable lengths between series connected 6V batteries ideally are the same and have nothing to do with the previously mentioned cables.
no problem here...
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-- The cables (positive and Negative) that attached to the battery bank from the load don't need to be the same length. In fact, if they did it would have to be from each 12V load. This is simply not the case.
This statement proves that you totally misunderstand the point. As I've stated twice already, the length is NOT the question. It is, however, just as important to balance the total cable length through each battery in the bank (whether pairs of 2-6s or multiple 12s) as it is to balance between individual 6V batteries, period.
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I know what I'm talking about and have been doing this for too many years to count. If I'm not being clear I apologize. I can't add anything I haven't already said, so this is my last post on the topic.
I love ego building meaningless comments like this, but I agree that you probably have no more to add.

With an EE Degree, 42 years of design and application experience plus 2 years of battery construction experience with Gould National, I can claim to know just a little bit about the subject myself. Now, I too, am finished....
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