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Old 03-31-2013, 04:38 PM   #267
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Something that may be of interest to gun owners...

www.gunlawguide.com

I find it to be of much interest and helps me decide how I may respond according to my geographical location. I make my best effort to allow LEOs to be subject to all the whims and fancies I suffer from, so I use courtesy, calmness and respect when dealing with LEOs. With everyone, as far as that goes. Hasn't failed me yet. I remind myself and family that "what goes around, comes around" and I'm usually first in line. It is hard to arrest a smile.
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Old 04-01-2013, 05:09 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceisla View Post
I always try to be courteous to everyone but, is it just me, or does this statement rub you the wrong way?

- Always be courteous to officers of the law.


To me, it implies that an officer will not apply the law(s) evenly depending on whether you treat him/her as your superior. Maybe it's just me but ....

As I said, I try to treat everyone courteously.
Sorry if I am not the most elegant speaker, My life is spent inside computers, I rarely interact with people, so please excuse my social retardation.

I just worry about LEO's because of the power they wield. I grew up in a police family (and yes he brought it home) So I was programmed to fear the badge.
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Old 04-01-2013, 05:46 PM   #269
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If an LEO wants to look in your vehicle, he's going to look in your vehicle. If he doesn't have a real reason (probably cause), all he has to do is make one up. I'm not saying this is routine, but I am saying that IMHO, in most cases, he probably does need to look in the vehicle in question...and we'll all be safer if he looks in there.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:57 PM   #270
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IMHO, in most cases, he probably does need to look in the vehicle in question...and we'll all be safer if he looks in there.
Boy, I cannot see how an illegal search makes us all safer, but I guess that is just me. Recently, completed some work south of the border and decided to drive north so I could help grand daughter move some stuff. About 30 or 40 miles north (well beyond border checkpoint) of the border we were directed into an, I guess, immigration checkpoint. Agent wanted us to tell him whether we were citizens. I refused, explaining I thought free travel was a basic right in this country - all I could think of was the old WW II movies "papers please". Agent directed me to another area and a supervisor ordered us out of car and said we would be searched, as well as the vehicle. I would not consent, asking what the reason was. After a rather tense stand off, they let us go.

Problem is, my 20 year old grand daughter, who was valedictorian of her high school class, and will graduate in the top 2% of her university class, had no idea that what we were ordered to do was not allowed without consent or cause. I guess in a few years when all us old throwbacks are gone it won't matter because no one will know what is acceptable behavior by authorities.
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Old 04-01-2013, 09:45 PM   #271
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I like this thread, so I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents worth. I have a tremendous amount of respect for those in law enforcement. Dad was a cop. Have a couple friends that are cops. My fishing buddy is a former prosecutor for the DA's office. I seem to hardly ever get pulled over but it's happened from time to time. Sometimes I got a ticket, sometimes not. When I did it was deserved. When I didn't it was probably deserved too, but attitude prevailed. It's always yes sir, no sir, yes ma'am, no ma'am. Respect goes a long ways sometimes.

On the note of searching my motorhome. I would politely inform the officer "Sir unless you have probable cause to search my vehicle, or State laws require I allow you to do so, I do not consent to a free search". Body language, intonation in your voice, cooperative behavior and general attitude will have an outcome on how it plays out from there.

On a side note I'd like to share a story of being pulled over. I should have gotten a ticket, but I didn't.

In a hurry to get home I was going to fast. Way to fast. One of the cars I passed was the Sheriff's patrol SUV. She lit me up pretty quick. I saw her, rolled down my window and waved my hand at her to follow me. I pulled over in a chain installation area about a mile ahead of where she initially turned on the lights. I stopped and hung one arm out the window with ins card and registration in hand. My other hand was at 12:00 on the steering wheel. All windows were rolled down. A very non threatening position. When she asked why I kept going after she turned on the lights. I told her the shoulder where you lit me up at, was barely wide enough for both of us to fit without being in the travel lane. I didn't want to put either of us in harms way. That's why I waved at you to let you know I saw you. She told me thank you with a smile and to slow down and have a nice weekend.
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Old 04-02-2013, 07:15 AM   #272
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Isn't it time to lock this thread? The original question and answer were on page 1. It seems to have evolved into how to be pleasant, regardless of the circumstances, when speaking to a LEO.
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:26 AM   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dry View Post
Sorry if I am not the most elegant speaker, My life is spent inside computers, I rarely interact with people, so please excuse my social retardation.

I just worry about LEO's because of the power they wield. I grew up in a police family (and yes he brought it home) So I was programmed to fear the badge.
As a lifetime LEO I'm am saddened to read your message. The last thing I would wish for is "fear of the badge". I always believed I held up the badge. Never that it held me up. You can respect the office but it's far better to respect the officer.
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Old 04-02-2013, 02:12 PM   #274
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As a lifetime LEO I'm am saddened to read your message. The last thing I would wish for is "fear of the badge". I always believed I held up the badge. Never that it held me up. You can respect the office but it's far better to respect the officer.
Ditto!! and let me add that I have always tried to live up to the respect given to me. Our badge should never be feared as our job should hold the trust given us by our communities. If the officer begins to strike fear in the community at large, it is time for that officer to go. The only fear he should strike should be in the heart of those who refuse to comply with our society's rules of behavior.
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Old 04-02-2013, 02:23 PM   #275
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Reread Washington State Supreme Court Limits Vehicle Searches | StoptheDrugWar.org

In its opinion, the court clearly held that the rights of Washingtonians to be free of warrantless searches trump the right of law enforcement not to be inconvenienced.

Washington is not the only state where state courts have found rights in the state constitution beyond what the US Supreme Court has found in the US Constitution
Thanks for the article, it proves my point: they CAN search your vehicle for officer safety without a warrant:
Quote:
But as the high court noted, while "a warrantless search of an automobile is permissible under the search incident to arrest exception when that search is necessary to preserve officer safety or prevent destruction or concealment of evidence of the crime of arrest," it had already "rejected the idea that the existence of probable cause alone can justify a warrantless search of a vehicle.
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Old 04-02-2013, 02:26 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by jzick View Post
Problem is, my 20 year old grand daughter, who was valedictorian of her high school class, and will graduate in the top 2% of her university class, had no idea that what we were ordered to do was not allowed without consent or cause. I guess in a few years when all us old throwbacks are gone it won't matter because no one will know what is acceptable behavior by authorities.
That's part of the problem today, they do not teach the Constitution and Amendments in schools anymore or if they do they leave certain ones out. Even some textbooks are written to exclude them or just mention that it's outmoded and no longer needed.
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Old 04-02-2013, 02:31 PM   #277
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DId you miss this?



What part of that dont you understand?
The part you left out I understand perfectly:
Quote:
But as the high court noted, while "a warrantless search of an automobile is permissible under the search incident to arrest exception when that search is necessary to preserve officer safety or prevent destruction or concealment of evidence of the crime of arrest," it had already "rejected the idea that the existence of probable cause alone can justify a warrantless search of a vehicle.
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Old 04-02-2013, 03:27 PM   #278
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Thanks for the article, it proves my point: they CAN search your vehicle for officer safety without a warrant:
Oops, here's what I should have quoted:
Quote:
But as the high court noted, while "a warrantless search of an automobile is permissible under the search incident to arrest exception when that search is necessary to preserve officer safety or prevent destruction or concealment of evidence of the crime of arrest," it had already "rejected the idea that the existence of probable cause alone can justify a warrantless search of a vehicle.
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Old 04-02-2013, 04:08 PM   #279
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We can argue about what's legal for an officier to do during a traffic stop, but everyone seems to be forgetting one important detail. During the stop, the officer is the one that decides what's legal, both by his being a officer of the court, and because he has a gun and is willing to pull it out and point it at you. What means you have to legally object to a search are entirely at his whim, right or wrong. If he's wrong, it gets sorted out later in court, but not on the side of the road.

People shouldn't fear the police, but teenagers shouldn't talk back to their parents either. Both are just facts of life.
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Old 04-02-2013, 04:22 PM   #280
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OK, my 2 cents. Just because I have a right to refuse a search does not mean that I have to excercise it. Choosing to allow the search one time does not make me loose the right to refuse it at another time. I have nothing to hide, and I have no impulse to prove that "mine is bigger than yours" by refusing a search. Most LEOs are good guys/gals who are willing to die to protect me - Why would I want to screw with their heads? Yeah, maybe when I was a dumb teenager - but I'm way past that stage now. (Note: no fair asking my DW to confirm that. ) I believe in the principle that any LEO is worthy of respect and courtesy unless they prove to be unworthy by their actions.


"Civility costs nothing, and buys everything."
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