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Old 07-05-2013, 10:00 PM   #29
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At least the plugged hose is an easy fix. Good you caught it before it decided to soak your carpet. (I hope)
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Old 07-06-2013, 01:01 AM   #30
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At least the plugged hose is an easy fix. Good you caught it before it decided to soak your carpet. (I hope)
No carpet in the Endeavor .... hardwood flooring .... yee ha !!

One of my larger projects ...

Trash the sofa ... extend the slide floor
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Old 07-09-2013, 12:42 PM   #31
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Hey Tom, went to the RV today and ran all the A/C units. Here are the pressures and temps for the dash (an Evans unit that looks similar to yours).

Ambient temp = 85
A/C fan = high
Slow idle at about 600
Low side = 45
High side = 210
Fast idle at 1100
Low side = 38
High side = 220
Vent output temp = 64 - 66

This unit is working satisfactorily (for me) and blows sufficient cool air in the cockpit area to allow driving without running the roof top units. This is WITHOUT additional passengers, in Florida, on a typical 85-90 degree day. The cockpit area will usually be about 80 degrees but with moving air it feels cooler.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:50 PM   #32
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Bruce
Thanks. I added 6oz. or so to mine and it didn't make much difference. My low side is around 40 now with my cheap gauge. I don't have a high side gauge. It was 250 when we had it on the machine. I am getting 65*-70* with ambient 80-90. That is sitting still at idle, fans on, high fan. I was doing some stuff yesterday and turned on the rear roof air because I was working inside. I stuck the thermometer in and was getting 65* air after 30 minutes or so. Interesting. If I get somewhere where I can get an expansion valve and drier, I might do that. For now, good enough. We will be down there for 2-3 months next winter travelling around. I'll buy you a beer, or two. You have been a big help.
Thanks
Tom
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:32 PM   #33
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Bruce
Thanks. I added 6oz. or so to mine and it didn't make much difference. My low side is around 40 now with my cheap gauge. I don't have a high side gauge. It was 250 when we had it on the machine. I am getting 65*-70* with ambient 80-90. That is sitting still at idle, fans on, high fan. I was doing some stuff yesterday and turned on the rear roof air because I was working inside. I stuck the thermometer in and was getting 65* air after 30 minutes or so. Interesting. If I get somewhere where I can get an expansion valve and drier, I might do that. For now, good enough. We will be down there for 2-3 months next winter travelling around. I'll buy you a beer, or two. You have been a big help.
Thanks
Tom
Great! ... give me a shout when you are coming down. Maybe we can meet for a cold one.

Slightly different but related topic ... yesterday I changed the drier and refilled the system in my 96 Geo Tracker ragtop. A/C has not been cold for years. Apparently, over 15 years or so, car dealer (during warranty) added 134A plus oil plus dye while trying to find a leak. Then I added more over the years. Anyway, way to much oil/dye in system. Seems fine with new drier and just 134A (no dye, no oil). Pressures are 45/225 at 90 degrees ambient.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:01 PM   #34
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Did you check the output temperature ?
That sounds like the way to go for me too. Start over and live with it.
Thanks
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:25 PM   #35
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Did you check the output temperature ?
That sounds like the way to go for me too. Start over and live with it.
Thanks
Yup ... vent temps are 60-63 which is just about enough to keep a ragtop at 76-78 in Florida on a mid 90's day. Heat gain thru top and plastic windows is ridiculous.
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:35 PM   #36
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My feeling regarding the dash unit in a Class A is that it's never going to be like a car. The A/C was designed to cool the cab of a truck and the volume behind the driver (in a truck) is miniscule compared to the RV. Never tried it but I assume a curtain drawn across behind driver/navigator would actually make a difference. Doesn't help passengers in the living room but that's not an issue for Diane and me as the only occupants.
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:42 PM   #37
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Weird. I checked our cars, Honda Crosstour and the Fit, and my GMC and was getting output temps in the 40s and 50s. High 80s ambient. The GMC was the coldest at 41*. I'm gonna give this a rest for now. Unless someone jumps in here with a class A motorhome with output temps considerably lower than 65*, I'm calling it "good enough for who it's for".
Bruce, Dark or Amber beer OK ?
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:56 PM   #38
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Slightly different but related topic ... yesterday I changed the drier and refilled the system in my 96 Geo Tracker ragtop. A/C has not been cold for years. Apparently, over 15 years or so, car dealer (during warranty) added 134A plus oil plus dye while trying to find a leak. Then I added more over the years. Anyway, way to much oil/dye in system. Seems fine with new drier and just 134A (no dye, no oil). Pressures are 45/225 at 90 degrees ambient.
Be careful when guessing the oil in the system. If an A/C system is drained fast you will notice a foamy substance coming out, that is PAG oil. Using a recycling station or draining slowly reduces the amount of oil lost. In a typical GM system, replacing the accumulator/dryer requires the addition of 2.5-3.5 oz. of oil depending on application. An over-saturation of oil in the system can affect performance but to really minimize output would take a lot.

Always make sure you have enough in the system to protect the compressor. Most common reasons for low-performing A/C systems area: plugged or restricted screen, orifice or expansion valve faulty and weak compressor.

Just did a 2005 Buick LeSabre for a customer, this one really out-performed. Installed rebuilt compressor and variable orifice. Running just above idle temp peaked at 50 degrees with 85 ambient. Out of the ordinary but proves it is possible to get well below 60 degrees with R134a.
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:09 PM   #39
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We tried it at 2lb and it was worse that at 1.5. Maybe if new parts installed it will act different.
32 oz is the correct amount . . . see bottom of last page:

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=7a665...14&app=WordPdf
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:26 PM   #40
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Weird. I checked our cars, Honda Crosstour and the Fit, and my GMC and was getting output temps in the 40s and 50s. High 80s ambient. The GMC was the coldest at 41*. I'm gonna give this a rest for now. Unless someone jumps in here with a class A motorhome with output temps considerably lower than 65*, I'm calling it "good enough for who it's for".
Bruce, Dark or Amber beer OK ?
I'm assuming you are talking about 41 in a closed car on Max Air (recirculated) ... correct?

A meaningful comparison of vehicles is with all doors open, no recirculation (external air), fan = high, and fast idle of 1000-1200. This provides the actual delta between ambient and output.

I'm pretty happy with 65-ish .... I think a delta of 20-25 is quite good on 134A.

You might find this interesting. Keep in mind they are talking about thermocouple temps with the thermocouples attached to metal (not air temps). Look at "Partial Charge Method" and it's Example.

http://www.colorado4wheel.com/manual...el/ewj_24a.pdf

Basically, they are talking about roughly 20 degrees delta (ambient to evaporator) AND only a few degrees difference between the refrigerant inlet to the evaporator and the refrigerant outlet as indicating a full charge. As I read it, they are saying if the refrigerant stays cool all the way thru the evaporator (inlet to outlet), it's charged.

Here's another decent read:

http://www.rvcruzer.com/r134.php


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Old 07-09-2013, 10:30 PM   #41
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R134a can be made to work and work well....just as good as R-12...but it takes much work to make this occur in a poorly designed, half azz installed HVAC system like Monaco put in mine. Upon purchasing mine...it had fair cooling at 85 outside temps..above 85 it was useless. At night, 88 degrees dash vent was 55 degrees at highway speeds. Pressure readings showed ridiculously high high pressure, which would drop instantly upon running cool water on condenser. So last August I revamped the high side of the system by adding another condenser with elect fan that is pressure switch operated. Then the fall cool set in..I didnt get a chance to get a good evaluation. I got to evaluate my work this May....90 degree ambient, bright sun..50 @ vent when cruising down highway. At 95 ambient..55 @ vent while driving at highway speed...Better? but I felt it could still be better.
So phase 2 of the AC revamp began....larger displacement compressor, relocated rec/drier up front from Monaco's location in rear, larger exp valve, total internal flush to remove excess oil(too much oil in r134a systems hamper performance, unlike an R12 system)...this resulted in vent temps of 45-47 when out on the highway at 90+ temps...I still felt I had more to gain....so upon comparing temp drop of the cooled air between evap outlet and dash vent..I found another loss of 5 degrees...so out comes the evap box...and I insulated the inside of it to stop heat gain...I then insulated the underdash air plenum(which is made of metal)...it was sweating with moisture now I can put cold air to it. I then laid R13 fiberglass over the whole top of the dash, just under the top dash pad...results made me a happy boy.....41 degrees @ dash when cruising down highway on a 92 degree sunny day.....so if a person wants to spend a lot of time re-engineering...R134a can and will cool and cool very well......while the principal of AC is the same between R12 and R134a....much of what was considered the "norm" for R-12 has to be changed for R134a systems...R134a has less ability to allow heat removal...that is why condenser cleanliness and size is SO important. Condensers that are perfect for R12, do not allow enough heat loss when used for a R134a. Too much oil hampers R134a, where it didnt effect R12 as much. Overcharging of R134a kills cooling ability real fast. Faster than a slightly overcharged R12 system
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:34 AM   #42
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R134a can be made to work and work well....just as good as R-12...but it takes much work to make this occur in a poorly designed, half azz installed HVAC system like Monaco put in mine. Upon purchasing mine...it had fair cooling at 85 outside temps..above 85 it was useless. At night, 88 degrees dash vent was 55 degrees at highway speeds. Pressure readings showed ridiculously high high pressure, which would drop instantly upon running cool water on condenser. So last August I revamped the high side of the system by adding another condenser with elect fan that is pressure switch operated. Then the fall cool set in..I didnt get a chance to get a good evaluation. I got to evaluate my work this May....90 degree ambient, bright sun..50 @ vent when cruising down highway. At 95 ambient..55 @ vent while driving at highway speed...Better? but I felt it could still be better.
So phase 2 of the AC revamp began....larger displacement compressor, relocated rec/drier up front from Monaco's location in rear, larger exp valve, total internal flush to remove excess oil(too much oil in r134a systems hamper performance, unlike an R12 system)...this resulted in vent temps of 45-47 when out on the highway at 90+ temps...I still felt I had more to gain....so upon comparing temp drop of the cooled air between evap outlet and dash vent..I found another loss of 5 degrees...so out comes the evap box...and I insulated the inside of it to stop heat gain...I then insulated the underdash air plenum(which is made of metal)...it was sweating with moisture now I can put cold air to it. I then laid R13 fiberglass over the whole top of the dash, just under the top dash pad...results made me a happy boy.....41 degrees @ dash when cruising down highway on a 92 degree sunny day.....so if a person wants to spend a lot of time re-engineering...R134a can and will cool and cool very well......while the principal of AC is the same between R12 and R134a....much of what was considered the "norm" for R-12 has to be changed for R134a systems...R134a has less ability to allow heat removal...that is why condenser cleanliness and size is SO important. Condensers that are perfect for R12, do not allow enough heat loss when used for a R134a. Too much oil hampers R134a, where it didnt effect R12 as much. Overcharging of R134a kills cooling ability real fast. Faster than a slightly overcharged R12 system
Good stuff ... Thanks! A bit more work than I want to do but really good to know that a variety of changes can make an improvement. In the meantime, naked driving also works
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