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Old 03-09-2015, 07:03 PM   #127
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This has been a fascinating thread. Until now, I haven't even thought about the possibility of being pulled over and asked to allow a search. Having read these posts, and considering my own beliefs, I would not consent to a search. I believe it is incumbent on all citizens to protect our constitutional rights.

While I have the utmost respect for those in law enforcement, they are human and therefore capable of error, poor judgement, or just having a bad day. If they feel they have probable cause, they can tell me what that is, and then they can get a warrant. I wouldn't have anything to hide either, but that doesn't mean I should allow a search. Protect your rights, or lose them.

Besides, my cats would freak if a stranger walked into our coach, and would stay freaked for days.
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Old 03-09-2015, 07:22 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LouieL View Post
Well said.
Firstly let me preface my comments with some background, my father was career Police Officer, I was with the Police and left to continue my education, I now have a Law Practice that deals daily with Police Officers from numerous local departments and a provincial department that services the local rural areas. I count several of them as friends and certainly have a cordial relationship with most if not all of the Police Officers I deal with, We do not need to be enemies in order for either of us to perform our duties to the best of our abilities.

Now to your comments and the topic, first, there is no way in hell anyone including any acquaintance is searching my house, my car or my motorhome without a warrant, period, I seriously doubt they would even ask, but if they did I and I would urge anyone to respectfully decline and shut up

This brings your comments to mind, why would spending a day on patrol with a uniform car answering domestic call, traffic accidents, thefts and assaults shed any light on a law abiding citizen being stopped with or without reasonable cause while travelling in their Recreational Vehicle
as to why they should waive their constitutional right to privacy and allow a search of their abode.

I have seen and heard it all and still do not see the logic in your comments, seeing how things transpire on the other side of the tracks has nothing to do with anything other than eventually burning out good Police Officers and why we lock our doors at night and watch our children.

To equate what is wrong in your country and mine with waiving hard fought and won rights to my mind is the opinion that needs reviewing.

Lastly, Law Abiding citizens of your country and mine should never be put in a position to be confrontational with law enforcement officials, that is Police Officers taking short cuts and shoving aside the rules they have sworn to uphold and putting innocent civilians in a bad position and I think we both understand most will cringe at the thought of telling a Police Officer `no you cant` and even good Police Officers count on that.

So in closing while a ride along may be a valuable lesson for all to learn and see what is out there and what our civil servants deal with daily, in my opinion and of coarse every Court in the Land, one has nothing to do with the other.

Regards

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Old 03-09-2015, 07:25 PM   #129
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Did anyone read the ruling by the SCOTUS I posted

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Originally Posted by LakeKerrGuy View Post
Like it or not, disagree or not (which I do), this case allows a warrantless search if law enforcement has, or can create, probable cause.


I believe there is some wiggle room in the decision. The dissent written by J.P. Stevens is very worth reading. Depending which way Kennedy leans, today's SCOTUS could overturn this decision. Anyone willing to get searched and challenge all the way?
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Old 03-09-2015, 07:50 PM   #130
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Like it or not, disagree or not (which I do), this case allows a warrantless search if law enforcement has, or can create, probable cause.


I believe there is some wiggle room in the decision. The dissent written by J.P. Stevens is very worth reading. Depending which way Kennedy leans, today's SCOTUS could overturn this decision. Anyone willing to get searched and challenge all the way?

A quick and I mean quick review reveals that this case law has more to do with reasonable cause and less to do with no cause search or fishing, they being the drug cops had reason to believe the motorhome in this instance contained drugs at that exact time, not someone stopped for a random spot check or minor traffic infractions, in the later the case law is clear about unreasonable search and/or warrantless searches and if there is a higher expectation of privacy in a real motorhome being used as a residence by legitimate owners.

just my 2 cents

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Old 03-09-2015, 10:53 PM   #131
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Agree

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Originally Posted by Moxy View Post
A quick and I mean quick review reveals that this case law has more to do with reasonable cause and less to do with no cause search or fishing, they being the drug cops had reason to believe the motorhome in this instance contained drugs at that exact time, not someone stopped for a random spot check or minor traffic infractions, in the later the case law is clear about unreasonable search and/or warrantless searches and if there is a higher expectation of privacy in a real motorhome being used as a residence by legitimate owners.

just my 2 cents

Moxy
Moxy, I agree totally. California v Carney is about a search of a motorhome with probable cause. My problem with this case is that it ties a motorhome in with the original case that allows for warrantless searches of vehicles. That is Carol v United States.

As for the last part of your reply ..."higher expectation of privacy in a real motorhome being used as a residence by legitimate owners."

The SCOTUS ruled that a motorhome was no different than an auto when the mh is on the road. This is part of the ruling that I believe may be decided differently today. The "motorhome" in the case sited was a very small Class C. A far cry from a 45' Class A.

IMO, everyone should read both SCOTUS opinions. Carol v United States and Carney v California.
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Old 03-09-2015, 11:18 PM   #132
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With a little bit of research, it appears that I have answered my own question that I posted a little earlier. As the old expression goes, "Google is your friend."

I have since learned that a search warrant is not required in order for police to search your vehicle. All they need is (1) your consent, or (2) probable cause. If they have neither, then a search warrant would be required.

What is scary, at least according to a website called Legal Match, is what constitutes probable cause. This includes "the training of police officers, which enable them to identify certain movements, gestures, preparations, or tools as tending to indicate criminal activity". Movements and gestures........really? The officer who pulled me over in KS told me I looked nervous. Granted, I gave him permission to search my RV, but had I declined, would my "apparent nervousness" warranted a search anyway due to "probable cause?" Who isn't nervous when they get pulled over far from home while on vacation?

Not intending to prolong this thread, just wouldn't want to hear about anyone sitting in the back of a patrol car in handcuffs because they felt they could refuse a vehicle search without a warrant. Probable cause is all that's needed, and it appears to be a very gray area.
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Old 03-09-2015, 11:33 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Moxy View Post
Firstly let me preface my comments with some background, my father was career Police Officer, I was with the Police and left to continue my education, I now have a Law Practice that deals daily with Police Officers from numerous local departments and a provincial department that services the local rural areas. I count several of them as friends and certainly have a cordial relationship with most if not all of the Police Officers I deal with, We do not need to be enemies in order for either of us to perform our duties to the best of our abilities.

Now to your comments and the topic, first, there is no way in hell anyone including any acquaintance is searching my house, my car or my motorhome without a warrant, period, I seriously doubt they would even ask, but if they did I and I would urge anyone to respectfully decline and shut up

This brings your comments to mind, why would spending a day on patrol with a uniform car answering domestic call, traffic accidents, thefts and assaults shed any light on a law abiding citizen being stopped with or without reasonable cause while travelling in their Recreational Vehicle
as to why they should waive their constitutional right to privacy and allow a search of their abode.

I have seen and heard it all and still do not see the logic in your comments, seeing how things transpire on the other side of the tracks has nothing to do with anything other than eventually burning out good Police Officers and why we lock our doors at night and watch our children.

To equate what is wrong in your country and mine with waiving hard fought and won rights to my mind is the opinion that needs reviewing.

Lastly, Law Abiding citizens of your country and mine should never be put in a position to be confrontational with law enforcement officials, that is Police Officers taking short cuts and shoving aside the rules they have sworn to uphold and putting innocent civilians in a bad position and I think we both understand most will cringe at the thought of telling a Police Officer `no you cant` and even good Police Officers count on that.

So in closing while a ride along may be a valuable lesson for all to learn and see what is out there and what our civil servants deal with daily, in my opinion and of coarse every Court in the Land, one has nothing to do with the other.

Regards

Moxy
Moxy, there’s a bit of confusion here...This should clear it up for you. You have to go back to post #107 by GA NAVIGATOR. While a discussion was in progress about RV searches, he posted his thoughtS that he believed LEO’s were terrorists and drug smugglers. I took exception to that and in post #110 I calmly and respectfully told him so.

Post #111, GA NAVIGATOR made a half hearted apology (about calling LEO’s smugglers) blaming too much camp fire alcohol but intimated he (still) believed them to be terrorists.

Post #114, I again took exception and again told him so. It was clear to me he has a disdain for law enforcement in general. That is when I suggested he go on a ride along to get a better perspective of how law enforcement operates. So in Post #126, LOUISL simply gave me a thumbs up for the way I handled that whole distasteful exchange...nothing more. That whole exchange was merely a momentary side bar, away from the original thread.

Moxy, none of those postings above addressed the original thread of allowing or disallowing Motorhome searches. As a matter of fact, the very last sentence in post #114, I apologized to the group for going mano y mano and basically hijacking this thread in an attempt to address a rude and disrespectful comment about an occupation that I nearly gave my life for...with lots of surgeries and even more scars to prove it.

Of course going on a Ride Along with LEO’s will hardly clear the air regarding 4th amendment violations. The suggestion was made in hopes that GA NAVIGATOR could come back to the table so to speak and speak more objectively without the prejudice and bias he so clearly has.

Now in an effort to get back on topic, here’s my input...DO NOT give up your 4th Amendment rights to allow a warrantless, unlawful search. I don’t care that you’re a law abiding person with nothing to hide. Look at it this way. What you’re essentially telling the officer is:

OFFICER, SURE, YOU HAVE MY PERMISSION TO WALK THROUGH MY MOTORHOME AND LOOK THROUGH ALL MY PRIVATE POSSESSIONS TO SEARCH FOR ANYTHING YOU CAN THROW ME IN JAIL FOR...SURE, GO RIGHT AHEAD.

Think about it folks...you think he wants to look through your stuff ‘cause he’s thinking about buying an RV someday and he’d just like to see how yours is outfitted so he’ll know what to order on his? Absolutely not...he’s hoping to get lucky...plain and simple.

If he/she attempts to intimidate you by saying “it’ll be quick and easy and I’ll have you on your way but if you make me have to get a warrant, things may be different” . Politely tell him to go get that warrant...good luck with that one. He’ll need to sell the PC (probable cause) to a judge...that’s not as easy as on TV. Now, border crossings, Agricultural inspections and federal check points...not sure, but I will be doing some research real soon on it before I head out again.
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Old 03-10-2015, 02:04 AM   #134
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Moxy, there’s a bit of confusion here...This should clear it up for you. You have to go back to post #107 by GA NAVIGATOR. While a discussion was in progress about RV searches, he posted his thoughtS that he believed LEO’s were terrorists and drug smugglers. I took exception to that and in post #110 I calmly and respectfully told him so.

Post #111, GA NAVIGATOR made a half hearted apology (about calling LEO’s smugglers) blaming too much camp fire alcohol but intimated he (still) believed them to be terrorists.

Post #114, I again took exception and again told him so. It was clear to me he has a disdain for law enforcement in general. That is when I suggested he go on a ride along to get a better perspective of how law enforcement operates. So in Post #126, LOUISL simply gave me a thumbs up for the way I handled that whole distasteful exchange...nothing more. That whole exchange was merely a momentary side bar, away from the original thread.

Moxy, none of those postings above addressed the original thread of allowing or disallowing Motorhome searches. As a matter of fact, the very last sentence in post #114, I apologized to the group for going mano y mano and basically hijacking this thread in an attempt to address a rude and disrespectful comment about an occupation that I nearly gave my life for...with lots of surgeries and even more scars to prove it.

Of course going on a Ride Along with LEO’s will hardly clear the air regarding 4th amendment violations. The suggestion was made in hopes that GA NAVIGATOR could come back to the table so to speak and speak more objectively without the prejudice and bias he so clearly has.

Now in an effort to get back on topic, here’s my input...DO NOT give up your 4th Amendment rights to allow a warrantless, unlawful search. I don’t care that you’re a law abiding person with nothing to hide. Look at it this way. What you’re essentially telling the officer is:

OFFICER, SURE, YOU HAVE MY PERMISSION TO WALK THROUGH MY MOTORHOME AND LOOK THROUGH ALL MY PRIVATE POSSESSIONS TO SEARCH FOR ANYTHING YOU CAN THROW ME IN JAIL FOR...SURE, GO RIGHT AHEAD.

Think about it folks...you think he wants to look through your stuff ‘cause he’s thinking about buying an RV someday and he’d just like to see how yours is outfitted so he’ll know what to order on his? Absolutely not...he’s hoping to get lucky...plain and simple.

If he/she attempts to intimidate you by saying “it’ll be quick and easy and I’ll have you on your way but if you make me have to get a warrant, things may be different” . Politely tell him to go get that warrant...good luck with that one. He’ll need to sell the PC (probable cause) to a judge...that’s not as easy as on TV. Now, border crossings, Agricultural inspections and federal check points...not sure, but I will be doing some research real soon on it before I head out again.

I was going to drop it since you said "This will be my last posting on this subject" but I will respond now.

You suggested a ride along. I have known personally no less than nine leo's. Guys I grew up with and friends, One of which was a Sheriff's deputy. I rode with him many times. I saw and experienced many things from boredom to being shot at by some crazy redneck. I've also witnessed pulling over the nice looking blonde for "weaving", the unnecessary endangerment of the public by driving at excessive speed to a not so important call, setting up a "DL checkpoint" at 2am because you're bored.
A very high percentage of these guys ended up with infidelity issues so that makes me wonder about moral character.
One officer that I did not know personally tried to stage what I'd call an "I'm a hero" event in which he removed and shot his own vest.
This was over fifteen years ago so I don't know if things are better or worse now. I don't associate with any of them anymore.
I have respect for the law but
I hope you understand why I have very little respect for law enforcement officers.


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Old 03-10-2015, 03:03 AM   #135
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Have people with cameras ever been asked (told) to turn off the cameras? What do you then?
They ask and try to pressure you to turn them off even threatening to arrest for wiretapping.

They use to get away with this until SCOTUS ruled that recording the police in public doing their job is totally legal. Even recording anyone who is in public is totally legal.

The still will ask you to stop but they have no legal power to make you stop. Now that this is well published if you do get arrested you can sue the officer that arrested you along with the department. They can no longer use the excuse that they didn't know like they use to which gave them limited immunity.
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Old 03-10-2015, 08:42 AM   #136
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may not be worth much , but here goes ,don't have a RV yet but have gone across this country with my grandsons in my ford excursion ,I understand all your reasons for Not allowing a search ,but most of us don't have a lawyer on call and I know from past dealings in my state from trying to get my grandsons when they where young away from state ( my step daughters gave them up ) you damn well better have the BEST lawyer you can afford (can you say goodby retirement fund ) most of us just want to get thru the day with as little trouble as we can ,let alone give a LEO any reason to want to look us over , sorry but ive found if you give a hard time YOU get a hard time maybe this misses the point , but I have a hard enough time saving for vacation and retirement ,DONT want to have to pay a lawyer again ,one I had was great but $$$$$ once was enough
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Old 03-10-2015, 09:53 AM   #137
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They ask and try to pressure you to turn them off even threatening to arrest for wiretapping.

They use to get away with this until SCOTUS ruled that recording the police in public doing their job is totally legal. Even recording anyone who is in public is totally legal...
Thanks. As a photographer, I should have remembered that but I generally try to avoid interactions with cops. Being arrested convinced me that nothing good ever comes from arguing with a cop, even when I'm 110% in the right.
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Old 03-10-2015, 11:19 AM   #138
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Thanks. As a photographer, I should have remembered that but I generally try to avoid interactions with cops. Being arrested convinced me that nothing good ever comes from arguing with a cop, even when I'm 110% in the right.
At what price liberty?

How about this approach;

If you haven't done anything wrong, why should you kowtow to authority that chooses to violate your constitutional (4th amendment) rights? It's called

P R I N C I P L E S ... anything else is just jello.

I can't believe the number of people that think this is just fine. It boggles the mind.

Let me point out that there are countless idiotic laws and regulations across this country that good law abiding citizens violate every day without knowing it because it's impossible for anyone to know them all. Ignorance of the law is no defense in court.

Did you know;

In Indiana "Mustaches are illegal if the bearer has a tendency to habitually kiss other humans."

In North Carolina "The mere possession of a lottery ticket is illegal in North Carolina and may result in a $2,000 fine." Repealed when they started their own lottery.

In Idaho "A person may not be seen in public without a smile on their face."

In West Virginia "According to the state constitution, it is unlawful for anyone to own a red or a black flag (Repealed 2010)"

I know your saying "those things won't be an issue in one of these stops." Likely true, but what other nonsense could you be in violation of and end up with a citation, fine or arrest? If you have firearms in your coach are you 100% legal? There are a lot of qwerks out there on this one.

When people surrender their rights they make that the norm and when someone stands up for their rights those used to infringing can become indignant. This type of officer needs to be exposed not capitulated to.

Most officers are good people and would never dream of infringing on your rights. If you are polite and respectful and keep your smarta$$ tone in check a good officer will respect you and your rights. The odd jackwagon will become belligerent. Stay cool and do not be baited into being a jackwagon yourself. If you fall into this trap you give them cause.

If you do this and you are arrested you won't be spending your retirement fund defending your rights, but rather are more likely to add to it when you when the resulting lawsuit.

I will never, repeat never, surrender my rights in the name of security. Have any of you read the NDAA? (National Defense Authorization Act). Under it nearly every post on this thread can be considered a threat to security and you can be jailed without access to the courts or a lawyer.

"There is not any volume, the sacred writings excepted, a passage to be found better worth the veneration of freemen, than this. "Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety;" nor could a lesson of more utility have been laid at the crisis before the Pennsylvanians." Benjamin Franklin.

Apathy and the unwillingness to stand for something is how our nation has come to the place we are today. But by all means, don't interrupt your vacation time by a few hours to stand for the principle of liberty. You wouldn't want to arrive after supper time. SMH

Psssttt!! If you surrender to the search you will be delayed anyway so that dog won't hunt either.
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Old 03-10-2015, 12:00 PM   #139
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OCN, is your post directed to me? If so, please see Post #120 on the previous page. In no way, shape or form am I endorsing surrendering my principles. In Post #137 (above yours,) I'm simply saying that I try to avoid interactions with cops. Most of the time, like when I was pulled over for doing 120mph in my Porsche, a polite demeanor got me off with a ticket for 65 in a 55 (that was when even freeways were 55.) However, I had a bad experience when the cop was obviously in a bad mood and anything other than, "Yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir" was a reason to arrest me.
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Old 03-10-2015, 01:07 PM   #140
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Try one last time

Two times now I have posted about SCOTUS rulings pertaining to warrantless searches of vehicles - both a car and a motorhome. I was hoping to get comment on the cases - not just bluster.

I say bluster kindly because if you look back at post #21, I too was in that corner. I now know they can search for any real or made up probable cause.
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