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Old 02-23-2015, 04:42 PM   #43
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....The funniest part of this at least to me was the agent interrogating me kept asking me if I was a US citizen.
It's not really all that funny.

What many U.S.A. citizens do not stop to realize is that up to 23% of the citizens of Mexico are fully Caucasian. You probably wouldn't notice them, because you would think they were tourists!! However, they are usually of Spanish, Swiss, German, Italian, French ancestry, and look just like you, but they are Mexicans who's families have lived there for many generations.

Many of the Caucasians in Mexico speak very good English and attend college in the U.S.A. or Europe so they develop American or European accents. It's almost impossible to tell that they are not from Iowa, (for example), unless a trained person hears them repeatedly speak.

Ask Louis C.K., Cameron Diaz, Raquel Welch, Charlie Sheen! All U.S.A. citizens of Mexican ancestry, and all very caucasian.
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Old 02-23-2015, 05:07 PM   #44
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Interesting and thought provoking thread... Not being very knowlegable about the U.S Constitution, would I be correct in saying that the 4th Amendment covers anyone legally within the country? I tend to agree that one should not consent to a search and I would have no problem doing just that in Canada; however while being a guest in the States I am not sure what my response to a search request would be.
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Old 02-23-2015, 05:17 PM   #45
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Interesting and thought provoking thread... Not being very knowlegable about the U.S Constitution, would I be correct in saying that the 4th Amendment covers anyone legally within the country? I tend to agree that one should not consent to a search and I would have no problem doing just that in Canada; however while being a guest in the States I am not sure what my response to a search request would be.
Bernie
Bernie our constitution applies to anyone LEGALLY in the USA
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Old 02-23-2015, 07:27 PM   #46
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This is a good video of a law professor and former defense attorney on why you should not talk to the police.
It's about 48 minutes.
http://youtu.be/6wXkI4t7nuc



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Old 02-25-2015, 09:16 PM   #47
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Some have said they don't know how they would act. I drive a Honda Civic Gx which is powered by natural gas. I have a carpool sticker so I can drive the carpool lane. A couple years ago a newer CHP pulled me over for being in the carpool lane which didn't set well with me but it happens. The problem was that I ask him if he saw my sticker and he said yes but it didn't matter. That was the wrong answer and I procedded to instruct him on the law with a very firm but angry voice. I then told him that he didn't know the law and to either verify the I was right or call his Sargent because he was not going to give me a ticket. About 5 minutes later he came back pissed off, tossed my license, insurance and registration back at me and said to leave. BTW, my hands were on the steering wheel the entire time.

The point is that sometimes a firm hand is required and you have to stand your ground. I have no doubt that I would refuse a search if a LEO ask to do one.
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Old 02-26-2015, 06:37 AM   #48
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Good point about your hands on the wheel. In today's world you just don't know how "po'f" the LEO could become and what form of retaliation to expect now or in the future. After all your driving the same path to work everyday!!
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Old 02-26-2015, 08:20 AM   #49
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But the trooper said he was checking all MH for drugs! First is this legal and second why are they checking all MH?


No, the action was not legal. The officer had no probable cause to search. If he could see or smell drugs while talking to the driver, then he would have probable cause to search further. The officer can ask for permission but you do not have to give it. Officers often work in the gray areas of the law because no law allows for the given circumstances in a situation. This is where officers have discretion to take action and enforce a law or not. Cops call them fishing trips. Some times they catch something.


Beware the over reach of government and its officials. I would insist on a supervisor being present. Our right to unlawful search and seizure should be protected even if doing so creates an uncomfortable situation. Most of our laws are "measured and reasonable". Law enforcement actions must also be "measured" and coupled with a "reasonable" belief that a crime has been committed . It is a fine line that must be respected. Judges frown heavily at officers who act improperly under color of authority. I was in law enforcement most of my working life and the hardest part was knowing where that line was. Law enforcement authority ends where our rights begin. As Gandalf said...YOU MAY NOT PASS!!


I think I said too much...sorry
I don't think you said too much...it was spot on.

I'm a retired leo and it never hurts to "ask" for permission to search. If denied and the driver has no warrants they are sent on their way. The threat of "getting a warrant" is a lame attempt to instill fear to comply. My answer to that would be, "Ok officer, we will wait right here until you have procured that warrant to search", would you like a Dr Pepper?

Protection from illegal search and seizure is one of the most important rights we have, so all of us should take it very seriously. Now, if it is a roadblock looking for a person...convict, felon, etc, by all means I would want any officer to have a look in my vehicle. The scope of that search is limited to any area that could conceal a person...so no opening cabinets, drawers, personal effects, etc.

Now a roadblock for the purposes of a drivers license check is a whole 'nuther can of worms, and yes I disagree with the Supreme Court on their legality.
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Old 02-26-2015, 09:50 AM   #50
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It is sobering, indeed, to realize your first contact with tyranny is likely from the the people you elect rather than the people who invade.
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Old 02-26-2015, 10:58 AM   #51
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It is sobering, indeed, to realize your first contact with tyranny is likely from the the people you elect rather than the people who invade.
Truth in that. And now it's everywhere.
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Old 02-26-2015, 11:44 AM   #52
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I am a retired LEO. Did the law enforcement officer advise you of why he stopped you in the first place? He should have as he asked for your driver's license, registration and proof of insurance. Our next question usually is may we search your vehicle if probable cause or more than a mere suspicion that a crime has been committed. The Terry rule speaks of being searched and detained for probable cause, stop and frisk. Here in lies the rub, there is the Carroll rule, it is Federal, covered by most states who enforce it. Carroll Rule says it is allowable to search a conveyance, any type of vehicle that takes you from here to there (car, truck, bicycle, train, boat, recreational vehicle) without permission to look for drugs and or contraband. So, with the possession laws by the state of Colorado, I am sure there is a directive or SOP from the agency along with a ruling of the State Attorney Generals office supporting searches of vehicles for contraband. If you have nothing to hide, I'd let anyone search anything. When you say no, that starts the more than a mere suspicion clock. Same as hands down, out of your pockets. If I can see your hands I know ALL parties involved in the contact are safe.
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Old 02-26-2015, 11:49 AM   #53
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I am a retired LEO. Did the law enforcement officer advise you of why he stopped you in the first place? He should have as he asked for your driver's license, registration and proof of insurance. Our next question usually is may we search your vehicle if probable cause or more than a mere suspicion that a crime has been committed. The Terry rule speaks of being searched and detained for probable cause, stop and frisk. Here in lies the rub, there is the Carroll rule, it is Federal, covered by most states who enforce it. Carroll Rule says it is allowable to search a conveyance, any type of vehicle that takes you from here to there (car, truck, bicycle, train, boat, recreational vehicle) without permission to look for drugs and or contraband. So, with the possession laws by the state of Colorado, I am sure there is a directive or SOP from the agency along with a ruling of the State Attorney Generals office supporting searches of vehicles for contraband. If you have nothing to hide, I'd let anyone search anything. When you say no, that starts the more than a mere suspicion clock. Same as hands down, out of your pockets. If I can see your hands I know ALL parties involved in the contact are safe.
What would the general response be if you asked for a supervisor to be there while the LEO conducted his search?
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Old 02-26-2015, 11:53 AM   #54
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Part of the imagnary war on drugs, terror, etc.

I was stopped on I-10 in Arizona about this time last year by a state trooper. The only question he had was whether I was a US citizen and a quick look at my license. I was driving my SAAB convertable, not my MH. I'm white, senior citizen, and retired military - can't be profiling. All part of the war on drugs, illegals, terror, etc., that does nothing but make a part of our populaion feel righteous.
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Old 02-26-2015, 11:59 AM   #55
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I am a retired LEO. Did the law enforcement officer advise you of why he stopped you in the first place? He should have as he asked for your driver's license, registration and proof of insurance. Our next question usually is may we search your vehicle if probable cause or more than a mere suspicion that a crime has been committed. The Terry rule speaks of being searched and detained for probable cause, stop and frisk. Here in lies the rub, there is the Carroll rule, it is Federal, covered by most states who enforce it. Carroll Rule says it is allowable to search a conveyance, any type of vehicle that takes you from here to there (car, truck, bicycle, train, boat, recreational vehicle) without permission to look for drugs and or contraband. So, with the possession laws by the state of Colorado, I am sure there is a directive or SOP from the agency along with a ruling of the State Attorney Generals office supporting searches of vehicles for contraband. If you have nothing to hide, I'd let anyone search anything. When you say no, that starts the more than a mere suspicion clock. Same as hands down, out of your pockets. If I can see your hands I know ALL parties involved in the contact are safe.
The Carroll Rule still requires "probable cause to believe contraband is contained in the vehicle". Is being a resident of Colorado probable cause?

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Old 02-27-2015, 09:29 AM   #56
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First, I'm very pro law enforcement but I'm even more pro constitutional rights and where the two collide law enforcement looses my support.

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The Carroll Rule still requires "probable cause to believe contraband is contained in the vehicle". Is being a resident of Colorado probable cause?
Bruce


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I was stopped on I-10 in Arizona about this time last year by a state trooper. The only question he had was whether I was a US citizen and a quick look at my license. I was driving my SAAB convertable, not my MH. I'm white, senior citizen, and retired military - can't be profiling. All part of the war on drugs, illegals, terror, etc., that does nothing but make a part of our populaion feel righteous.
Now that sounds like an illegal stop to me. No probable cause to pull you over was given. Been it me, I would not have been quite about being illegally stopped.



In deference to any LEOs if you just happen to touch a line on the road that's not probable cause especially if it windy or the lane is of substandard width. If you did it several times then it would be. This is especially true when LEO stays behind a car for several miles because what will always happen is that the person you're following will keep checking the mirrors wondering why you're following them, they'll start getting nervous and sooner or later they will touch that line. That to me is entrapment pure and simple.

If a LEO ever pulled me over when driving a MH or 5er for touching the line once he'll get a piece of my mind about probable cause after I show him my dash cam footage. This is the one excuse that's been proven LEOs use to pull someone just so they can check you out when they don't have probable cause.

Note to self, have two dash cams one just for showing LEOs and the other to keep rolling until there is one that lets you display and record at the same time.

The way to fix this is have a Federal requirement that ALL patrol vehicles must have dash cams running all the time and anytime the lights and or siren is hit the previous 5 minutes, which means you have to hit the lights within 5 minutes of the infraction, through the time the LEO releases the person pulled over and officially goes code 4 must be saved for at least a week if no ticket written and a year if a ticket is written. In addition if the person pulls over disputes the reason that video must be shown to the person pullover on demand. Allowing you to view can be done from the LEOs smart phone. I don't care what these cost, "if these were mass produced they would cost no more than a good high end dash cams" it's the only way we'll stop LEO and departments from making up reasons to pull you over.
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