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Old 05-10-2012, 08:49 AM   #15
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Gee, nice job siting T. Boone Pickens. He doesn't have a dog in this hunt does he? Completely unbiased. Travel through Wyoming's NG well areas and see the haze in many of the areas that just 15 years ago had 100 mile vistas. I don't believe in ignoring risks or allowing large, vested corporations try to overpower individuals.

Pennsylvania Residents' Flammable Drinking Water Blamed On Fracking - YouTube

Natural gas is a fossil fuel. It took millions of years to form, humans are consuming it at a rate that will deplete it in a century or two. The planet took millions, if not a billion years or more to chemically create hydrocarbons. As we consume them, we release carbon back into the environment. We have to find and develop renewable energy sources instead of putting our efforts into finding and releasing more carbon rich energy. That's why I mentioned hydrogen as a potential energy source I'd rather see developed instead of CNG.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:58 AM   #16
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That's why I mentioned hydrogen as a potential energy source I'd rather see developed instead of CNG.
Since free hydrogen (i.e., H2) doesn't exist here on planet Earth in a natural state, where and how are you planning to obtain this hydrogen?

Rusty
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:05 AM   #17
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One suggestion would be to use excess, off peak wind or solar electric power to generate hydrogen that then could be used as a dense portable fuel that would only revert to water in combustion.
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:11 AM   #18
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One suggestion would be to use excess, off peak wind or solar electric power to generate hydrogen that then could be used as a dense portable fuel that would only revert to water in combustion.
If you're trying to displace carbon fuels, wind and solar don't make a dent in our electric power generation requirements in the U.S. today - ref. oil, natural gas and coal-fired power plants. So, if we use wind and solar to produce hydrogen, that's electric power that isn't going to be available to replace conventional sources. IOW, you're trading emissions from vehicles for emissions from power plants. Technology already exists for capturing any off-peak capacity from wind and solar - one example is pumping water into an elevated reservoir with off-peak power and running the water through hydro turbines during periods of peak demand to produce electrical power for the grid.

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Old 05-10-2012, 09:16 AM   #19
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This thread was started asking about the viability of using CNG as motive power motorhomes. My reply was pointing out some of the issues. I wasn't trying to start an energy argument. To me, the engineering problems of where to safely put the tanks, short range, and refueling are more interesting from an RVer's viewpoint. I'll not go on about alternative fuels and environmental issues.
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:28 AM   #20
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That's fine - let's not hijack this thread. My point is, from my experience and viewpoint as an engineer that's worked in the energy industries (including power generation) for over 40 years, there are no "magic silver bullets" sitting out there that will easily, safely and cost-effectively answer our energy requirements in the U.S. in an environmentally acceptable manner - including hydrogen. Realistically, you're either going to have to obtain hydrogen from hydrocarbons (example - stripping the hydrogen from methane - CH4) which leaves one with the carbon atom to deal with, or you're going to pull it from water (H2O) via electrolysis, which takes electrical energy and consumes more energy in the electrolysis process than is recovered by the oxidation of hydrogen as a fuel to produce water once again, and I doubt that the U.S. citizenry has the appetite to build enough nuclear power plants to produce the electrical energy capacity to generate hydrogen in meaningful quantities without the use of carbon fuels.

JM2CW..... Now back to your regularly scheduled CNG programming.

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Old 05-10-2012, 09:36 AM   #21
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That's fine - let's not hijack this thread. My point is, from my experience and viewpoint as an engineer that's worked in the energy industries (including power generation) for over 40 years, there are no "magic silver bullets" sitting out there that will easily, safely and cost-effectively answer our energy requirements in the U.S. in an environmentally acceptable manner - including hydrogen. Realistically, you're either going to have to obtain hydrogen from hydrocarbons (example - stripping the hydrogen from methane - CH4) which leaves one with the carbon atom to deal with, or you're going to pull it from water (H2O) via electrolysis, which takes electrical energy and consumes more energy in the electrolysis process than is recovered by the oxidation of hydrogen as a fuel to produce water once again, and I doubt that the U.S. citizenry has the appetite to build enough nuclear power plants to produce the electrical energy capacity to generate hydrogen in meaningful quantities without the use of carbon fuels.

JM2CW..... Now back to your regularly scheduled CNG programming.

Rusty



I totally agree, there's no such thing as a free lunch -- or energy source. Sort of the gist of my first reply to the OP's original question.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:03 AM   #22
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That movie clip was from the completely debunked movie Gasland. The wells in question were less than 100 feet and the fracking wells were over 8,000 feet. The difference was solid rock. Gas occurs naturally in the ground and when you punch a hole in the ground for water, sometimes you get some gas. There are many of these methane in water wells where there is no fracking for hundreds of miles. The environmentalist have been trying unsuccessfully for years to prove fracking is polluting ground water. The EPA just came out with new regulations which make it much harder to get permitted on public lands. This is part of the war on fossil fuels to make wind and solar more competitive by driving up the price on fossil fuels. Mazda makes a natural gas powered passenger car. It can be refueled via your home natural gas. It requires a compressor which brings the normal 8 lbs pressure up to 3,000. It required 6 to 8 hours to refuel and will last about 300 miles. I have read that most internal combustion engines can be converted to run on natural gas for about $3,000 on a small passenger vehicle. Our local gas company has been doing it for decades. I have read the equivalent gasoline price is about $1.50. Remember natural gas prices now are about 25% of what they were just a few years ago due to fracking. The logical place to start would be commercial over the road trucks and RV's could easily piggy back on that supply chain. No battery will be powering a 23,000 pound RV down the road any time soon.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:16 AM   #23
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To answer Joe's original question without getting into whether or not everything will lead to killing us...I checked a web site for a CNG conversion for dielsel engines. The cost was well over $20K. Then you'ld have to search for somewhere to fill up. Not practical at this time.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:52 AM   #24
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I think all of these ideas may happen over time. Cummins is developing a nat gas engine. Clean energy is installing nat has pumps at flying j stations
http://cng-times.com/tag/flying-j/
The problem is time and economics
The system we have in place supports gasoline and diesel. I just bought a new f350 gasser. I could have gotten the optional cng prep at $315 but still would have had to go to an aftermarket vendor to add the tanks and anything else needed for cng at about $3000 more. Then to make it even more impractical there are only 2 stations in the Chicago area. I would probably not recoup my investment in cng. Jm2c
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:04 AM   #25
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I think all of these ideas may happen over time. Cummins is developing a nat gas engine.
Just one quick interjection to deal with the engine technology. Industrial engines have used natural gas as a fuel since the late 19th century. These engines (as well as gas-burning gas turbines) are used throughout the oil patch as well as in power generation applications. They can be either spark-ignited (think gasoline engines) or dual-fuel using diesel as a pilot fuel to ignite the air/natural gas mixture in the combustion chamber. These dual-fuel engines can operate as either gas/diesel engines or straight diesel engines, depending on fuel availability and price. Examples of such power generation engines that our company manufactures are attached below.

What we're really talking about are the supporting systems to make this technology viable for over-the-road vehicle applications.

Rusty
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:22 AM   #26
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The State of South Carolina is forward thinking in providing CNG / LPG commercial fueling stations for on-highway use.

South Carolina Energy Office

CNG or Compressed Natural Gas Fuel Stations Directory

Click on the fuel type you want to see in the left margin. This map will track these types of resources across the US.
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Old 05-10-2012, 07:24 PM   #27
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Just one quick interjection to deal with the engine technology. Industrial engines have used natural gas as a fuel since the late 19th century. These engines (as well as gas-burning gas turbines) are used throughout the oil patch as well as in power generation applications. They can be either spark-ignited (think gasoline engines) or dual-fuel using diesel as a pilot fuel to ignite the air/natural gas mixture in the combustion chamber. These dual-fuel engines can operate as either gas/diesel engines or straight diesel engines, depending on fuel availability and price. Examples of such power generation engines that our company manufactures are attached below.

What we're really talking about are the supporting systems to make this technology viable for over-the-road vehicle applications.

Rusty
Rusty, can one of these puppies fit in the back of my Winnie?

(Pics of the engines are great!)
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Old 05-10-2012, 07:52 PM   #28
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OP here, I think it was price per gal. Just up the street from me, I'll confirm it next time I go by.
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