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Old 05-08-2012, 12:35 AM   #1
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Convert to CNG

I saw on the news tonite that SLC, UT bought some new buses that will run on Compressed Natural Gas (CNG). Just up the road from me is a station showing 1.44 for CNG. Anyone ever converted their MH over to run on it?? Could it be done?? At what cost?? What would the mileage be??
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:01 AM   #2
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To the op, cng is not practicle (yet) due to the restriction in miles per tank and the availability to fill while traveling, very limited stations.
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:15 AM   #3
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CNG is cheaper, but, it is more precarious to handle safely. I know of a major company in our area that has used CNG for over 30 years to run their forklifts in the plant; the down side is it is not as efficient as LPG, plus the tank pressures are in the 3000 PSI range for storage.
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:27 PM   #4
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I wonder if that price ($1.44) is per gallon?

You would need 5.76 Gallons of CNG (@ 2400PSI) to be the energy equivalent to 1 gallon of gas. That works out to be $8.29/gallon.

But...CNG would burn cleaner and I think that's what SLC is working for, not a reduction in fuel costs.
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:38 PM   #5
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I thought we had a million or so years worth of natural gas in the ground in this country. Wouldn't it also be a way of to wean ourselves of imported oil?

Personally, I don't understand why this valuable resource is so underdeveloped.
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Old 05-08-2012, 04:25 PM   #6
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Jim-hitec might check your math here in cal. we pay about $5 per 1000 cuft of ng or about 1000000 btus This is about the heat in 8 gal of gasoline So ng is about 8 times cheeper than pump gas This is the bigest reason the city busses us ng now too save $.
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Old 05-08-2012, 04:29 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrschwarz View Post
I thought we had a million or so years worth of natural gas in the ground in this country. Wouldn't it also be a way of to wean ourselves of imported oil?

Personally, I don't understand why this valuable resource is so underdeveloped.

Perhaps because Federal funds are being used to promote solar and wind energy, just a thought...
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Old 05-08-2012, 05:02 PM   #8
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CNG is much less energy dense than gasoline or diesel. In most municipal bus applications, they must have up to 7 large tanks mounted on the roof or under the floor that contain CNG at 3600 psi. Maximum range is 350 miles. There are approximately 1,100 CNG fueling stations in the U.S., but less than half are available to the public, the rest are private, compared to 200,000 regular gas/diesel stations. The CNG vehicles are 10 to 25% less efficient than diesel vehicles, although they do release 20% less greenhouse gasses during combustion. Issues in transporting, storing, and transferring into vehicles require much more training than handling other fossil fuels.

In addition, the whole issue of getting it out of the ground comes up. Fracking, injecting chemicals into the ground under high pressure to break up NG containing rock strata, is very controversial. Pollution of ground water, and the general long term effects of the mostly secret chemicals used is a very large issue. Also some recent studies have shown that the release of greenhouse gases during extraction offsets much of the gains in burning it.

For all of the above reasons, I don't see CNG as a replacement for diesel or gasoline for a long time. Many think that hydrogen will come into use before the private use of CNG for transportation. Just have to get past the whole Hindenburg thing.
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Old 05-08-2012, 05:11 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrschwarz View Post
I thought we had a million or so years worth of natural gas in the ground in this country. Wouldn't it also be a way of to wean ourselves of imported oil?

Personally, I don't understand why this valuable resource is so underdeveloped.
Living in the northeast, it's one of the hottest topics going, relative to whether hydro-fracking is safe or not. PA has been developing natural gas at a rapid pace over the past 5 years, as some other states have done as well. NY is currently debating whether to allow it or not.

There are hundreds of new gas wells coming on line annually these days. Currently, natural gas is at a 5 year low in pricing.

I only wish my house used natural gas to heat. No gas pipeline along my road.
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Old 05-08-2012, 09:34 PM   #10
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Pierce Transit in Tacoma, WA has been running CNG fueled buses since the mid to late 1980's. The 80% or more federal subsidy was a major consideration in going that direction. They worked closely with Cummins in perfecting the operation. The large roof mounted tanks and relatively limited range - compared to 100 gallons of diesel fuel make CNG somewhat impractical for an RV or OTR truck. LNG (Liquified) has its problems too.
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:29 PM   #11
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not to mention the HP loss with CNG....CNG built engines have far higher compression ratios than gassers. Gassers with marginal HP will be totally unsatisfactory if converted to CNG
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Old 05-09-2012, 09:41 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by autofish View Post
Jim-hitec might check your math here in cal. we pay about $5 per 1000 cuft of ng or about 1000000 btus This is about the heat in 8 gal of gasoline So ng is about 8 times cheeper than pump gas This is the bigest reason the city busses us ng now too save $.
That's a problem, Autofish, I can't check the math.

OP said that it was 1.44 but didn't say that was per gallon or GGE (Gasoline Gallon Equivalent) or some other measure (per therm?). I did find an article that makes me think that the CNG OP saw at $1.44 was per therm, (although the date of the pricing was uncertain). Which would make it energy equivalent to gasoline at $1.83/gallon. Not bad.

I wish all the suppliers would get together and start using GGE...
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Old 05-10-2012, 04:33 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by BFlinn181
CNG is much less energy dense than gasoline or diesel. In most municipal bus applications, they must have up to 7 large tanks mounted on the roof or under the floor that contain CNG at 3600 psi. Maximum range is 350 miles. There are approximately 1,100 CNG fueling stations in the U.S., but less than half are available to the public, the rest are private, compared to 200,000 regular gas/diesel stations. The CNG vehicles are 10 to 25% less efficient than diesel vehicles, although they do release 20% less greenhouse gasses during combustion. Issues in transporting, storing, and transferring into vehicles require much more training than handling other fossil fuels.

In addition, the whole issue of getting it out of the ground comes up. Fracking, injecting chemicals into the ground under high pressure to break up NG containing rock strata, is very controversial. Pollution of ground water, and the general long term effects of the mostly secret chemicals used is a very large issue. Also some recent studies have shown that the release of greenhouse gases during extraction offsets much of the gains in burning it.

For all of the above reasons, I don't see CNG as a replacement for diesel or gasoline for a long time. Many think that hydrogen will come into use before the private use of CNG for transportation. Just have to get past the whole Hindenburg thing.
Dear sir

Nothing has been proven one way or the other that hydraulic FRAKING used in natural gas exploration and production contains overly dangerous chemicals or that it pollutes ground water. To date there is in fact not one single case in the entire USA where ground water has been conclusively proven to have IN FACT BEEN POLLUTED by hydraulic FRAKING during natural gas exploration. Much of this talk is from hard core political liberals who prefer that the USA return to horse and buggy days. The FACT is that natural gas emits FAR LESS green house gas effects than oil or coal and is in fact available in MASSIVE SUPPLY within the borders of the USA as opposed to countries who hate the USA and want us dead and gone. Go to the website below to get CORRECT AND AUTHORITATIVE information on why we should be using this abundant fuel instead of diesel or gas for transportation motor fuel. Natural gas in the form of CNG produced from American Soil can replace up to 1/3rd of imported oil that this country uses EVERY day, THAT is billions, not millions of dollars saved and not sent to hostile countries who LOVE TO TAKE OUR MONEY but would prefer we were dead!

This subject is very political and our current group of politicians simply does not support the intelligent use of this abundant fuel within our own borders. We do need to develop engines that will develop the needed torque for long haul trucking and recreational RV USE not to mention we need abundant dueling stations to accomplish this goal. NATURAL GAS for use as a motor fuel is lots CHEAPER THAN DIESEL OR GASOLINE , we own it, it employs AMERICAN workers and pays massive AMERICAN WORKERS AND PAYS MASSIVE AMERICAN STATE nd federal royalties and taxes.

See the following website

http://www.pickensplan.com/
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Old 05-10-2012, 04:47 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BFlinn181
CNG is much less energy dense than gasoline or diesel. In most municipal bus applications, they must have up to 7 large tanks mounted on the roof or under the floor that contain CNG at 3600 psi. Maximum range is 350 miles. There are approximately 1,100 CNG fueling stations in the U.S., but less than half are available to the public, the rest are private, compared to 200,000 regular gas/diesel stations. The CNG vehicles are 10 to 25% less efficient than diesel vehicles, although they do release 20% less greenhouse gasses during combustion. Issues in transporting, storing, and transferring into vehicles require much more training than handling other fossil fuels.

In addition, the whole issue of getting it out of the ground comes up. Fracking, injecting chemicals into the ground under high pressure to break up NG containing rock strata, is very controversial. Pollution of ground water, and the general long term effects of the mostly secret chemicals used is a very large issue. Also some recent studies have shown that the release of greenhouse gases during extraction offsets much of the gains in burning it.

For all of the above reasons, I don't see CNG as a replacement for diesel or gasoline for a long time. Many think that hydrogen will come into use before the private use of CNG for transportation. Just have to get past the whole Hindenburg thing.
FOR A LOT MORE FACTUAL INFORMATION ON CNG THAN WHAT IS BEING SPECULATED ON HEREIN, SEE THE BELOW WEBSITE;


http://www.pickensplan.com/
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