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Old 01-03-2015, 06:12 AM   #43
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+1!
Me too, +1
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Old 01-03-2015, 09:27 AM   #44
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I got the new injectors from Scheiddiesel for $665.22 shipped to me. The total labor rate I was charged would have included the install of injectors, either my old ones or the new ones. The cost of these injectors is not included in the $7000 for R&R of head.

I appreciate all of the suggestions about what to do next. My first hope is that the repairs that AB&T Diesel did will hold up. Since my first experience with the MH after their 14 week repair was the MH drove 10 miles total and then stopped and I had it towed back to the shop, I really will go quietly into the night if the damn thing just keeps running. I still will check with South Plains Cummins in Houston when I get on their dyno for baseline HP and torque and see if they can give my the estimate of hours to remove and replace head on this MH. They should be able to do that since it will be right there and they can look at it. We will see. And I have the old broken head if that is needed later. Is there a way for anyone to prove why that tab on the head broke? (the tab that has the threads for bolting on the exhaust manifold). Forensic metallurgist?

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Old 01-03-2015, 09:37 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Tomtall View Post
This is one reason I own a gasoline engine RV.
Sorry for your misfortune.
Same thing can happen with a gasser.

I swapped out the head on my 8.3l Cummins. Did the work myself. About 1500.00 total including the recondition head.
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Old 01-03-2015, 10:46 AM   #46
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I used to run a shop and we charged flat rate, and I can tell you we never made a "fortune" off it, the flat rate is a realistic amount of time to do a job, most of the time its less then what it really takes, due to unforseen problems like rusted bolts ect. If you have a good tech with the proper tools and you've done a job several times yes you can "beat" the time, I can tell you I have well over 100,000 dollars in tools, yes you read that right, my tool bill was what most people made car payments a month. It took over 40 years to get that much, but new car models come out every year and special tools had to be bought to fix them.
I have run a shop also and a lot of the time you have the guy run a 100 hours on a40 hour week you have to have another guy to take care of his comebacks but here I think the question is was he over charge. Sound and high to me but when you ran a shop I'm sure you didn't want this to happen and if brought to your attention you would done something as I would. Need to talk to management they will do something but can't do anything they don't know about
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Old 01-03-2015, 07:44 PM   #47
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Same thing can happen with a gasser.

I swapped out the head on my 8.3l Cummins. Did the work myself. About 1500.00 total including the recondition head.
Nope. 😉 Not for 7k, 5k, 3k not even $1500.
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Old 01-03-2015, 08:14 PM   #48
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Nope. �� Not for 7k, 5k, 3k not even $1500.
The fact that diesels are more expensive to work on is not the OP's concern... it's great that many people have made the decision for themselves to stick to gas, but we all have our reasons for choosing the power plants we have chosen... and there are several threads/arguments elsewhere on these forums where it's more appropriate to voice our opinions on that.

At this point, it appears the OP just wants to figure out if he was treated fairly or not. The price he paid seems to be greater than what is justifiable, even given the higher cost of diesel repair over gas. Just my $.02.

I will say, that if the diesel shop first attempted to simply fix the leaks but had several bolts break when trying to remove the manifold, that this could add up to some significant labor. When I pulled my exhaust manifold the first time, I think 7 of the 12 bolts broke. It took hours and hours and more hours of standing basically on my head in the engine bay drilling the old bolts out with a fixture I made at work, and retapping the holes. It was horrible. What would have been more horrible is if I had put all that time into fixing the holes to then break an ear off of the head when I tightened the last bolt. I can definitely see this job going over 30 hours if after the bolts were drilled I then had to pull the head and replace it. Again... just the opinion of a backyard mechanic...

Cheers
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Old 01-03-2015, 09:09 PM   #49
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Shortly after I purchased my 93 Pace Arrow Diesel I discovered a crack on #6 exhaust port! It has the Cummins 8.3l mechanical. I pondered having the piece brazed back on but figured it best just to purchase a reconditioned head from Cummins for 1200.00! Did all the work myself. Took me about 8 hours to do the work myself.
Love those 8.3l mechanicals! Run like a top & coupled with the Allison 3060!!!
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Old 01-03-2015, 09:26 PM   #50
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The fact that diesels are more expensive to work on is not the OP's concern... it's great that many people have made the decision for themselves to stick to gas, but we all have our reasons for choosing the power plants we have chosen... and there are several threads/arguments elsewhere on these forums where it's more appropriate to voice our opinions on that.

At this point, it appears the OP just wants to figure out if he was treated fairly or not. The price he paid seems to be greater than what is justifiable, even given the higher cost of diesel repair over gas. Just my $.02.

I will say, that if the diesel shop first attempted to simply fix the leaks but had several bolts break when trying to remove the manifold, that this could add up to some significant labor. When I pulled my exhaust manifold the first time, I think 7 of the 12 bolts broke. It took hours and hours and more hours of standing basically on my head in the engine bay drilling the old bolts out with a fixture I made at work, and retapping the holes. It was horrible. What would have been more horrible is if I had put all that time into fixing the holes to then break an ear off of the head when I tightened the last bolt. I can definitely see this job going over 30 hours if after the bolts were drilled I then had to pull the head and replace it. Again... just the opinion of a backyard mechanic...

Cheers


I was rebutting what was stated by mchero. However when it comes to diesels $7k isn't unheard of, was the OP taken advantage of? Everybody can speculate and assume all they want. Some can chime in with what they paid or what it cost to do it themselves, still doesn't help the OP. Unless a bunch chime in saying they paid $8k and up. A buddy of mine paid close to that to replace a radiator on his DP a few years back, was he screwed over, maybe maybe not.
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Old 01-03-2015, 10:43 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by ronspradley View Post
I got the new injectors from Scheiddiesel for $665.22 shipped to me. The total labor rate I was charged would have included the install of injectors, either my old ones or the new ones. The cost of these injectors is not included in the $7000 for R&R of head.

I appreciate all of the suggestions about what to do next. My first hope is that the repairs that AB&T Diesel did will hold up. Since my first experience with the MH after their 14 week repair was the MH drove 10 miles total and then stopped and I had it towed back to the shop, I really will go quietly into the night if the damn thing just keeps running. I still will check with South Plains Cummins in Houston when I get on their dyno for baseline HP and torque and see if they can give my the estimate of hours to remove and replace head on this MH. They should be able to do that since it will be right there and they can look at it. We will see. And I have the old broken head if that is needed later. Is there a way for anyone to prove why that tab on the head broke? (the tab that has the threads for bolting on the exhaust manifold). Forensic metallurgist?

ronspradley
I have worked on a lot of 5.9 cummins engines and have never seen an exhaust port ear broken off. You would have to do something pretty stupid to snap one of them off. The manifolds were prone to cracks after mucho miles. Also I can r&r a head on a dodge with a 5.9 in 10 hrs and that's messing around. I know it's a little tougher in a MH but 15 hrs tops should be plenty of time.
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Old 01-03-2015, 10:44 PM   #52
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My advice to the OP was how to determine if he had been overcharged and what he needed to do to try and recover his money. I have been to small claims court three times. lost once and quite frankly that was because the judge was wrong. I go to arbitrations about 10 to 15 times a year in my hobby job. Arbitrations are very similar to small claims court in the way they are run and the standards for evidence and proof. If the OP wants to just drop it and not go through the aggregation I can sure understand that. I would say that one of the times I went to small claims court I had my ducts in a row and they just went ahead and paid me without seeing the judge. In Arkansas it costs 125.00 to file in small claims court. Not much depending on how big the potential recovery might be.


Flat Rate manual. My son worked for several years as a mechanic he got paid by the hour on flat rate manual. He almost never lost money because a job took longer than the manual called for. I had to replace the front wheel bearings on my Silverado 2500 4 wheel drive pickup. Chevrolet called for 6 hours labor if I remember correctly. 3 per wheel. My friend and I using a floor jack and jack stands without all the proper tools the mechanic would have had and not having a lift to raise the whole vehicle up at the same time did the first one in an hour and the second one in about 45 minutes. Amazing how much less time it took us than the flat rate times Chevrolet quoted us especially with the difference in tools and equipment.
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Old 01-04-2015, 12:47 AM   #53
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49 hours??? if it is that hard to do they could drop the motor out and do it in half the time..

If the head Original head had defects it would be obvious getting an expert opinion of the metal around the break... not a guess... I vote they patched it up and sent it out

49 hours to re-re a head crazy town!! Crazy town... It once took me 42 hours to wire my truck from scratch... But I did the 42 hours straight and had to rebuild switches and lights sockets as I went
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Old 01-04-2015, 05:24 AM   #54
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The right engineer could do a failure analysis on the broken head and tell you for sure if it was a defect in the casting or installation error.
You could then take that report to the shop ask for most of your money back or tell them you will see them in court.


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Old 01-04-2015, 10:35 AM   #55
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Looks like the very best outcome would be to be able to prove that the head was broken due to installation error. Just FYI, no bolts broke when manifold or head were removed. I put PB Blaster on manifold bolts every day for a week before it was originally removed and no bolts broke. Any suggestions on who to take the broken head to to get a written professional opinion of why the tab broke. If I could prove that the install broke the head then all of this would be in court.

Second best would be to have Cummins in Houston give me their estimate of shop time required to R&R a head for the B5.9. That also would be evidence for small claims court. Waiting on weather to get to Houston to the dyno and check with their service dept.

So, suggestions on how I can get a qualified professional engineer opinion on what killed the head on this engine?

ronspradley

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Old 01-04-2015, 11:05 AM   #56
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It took me two hours to replace a cracked manifold and gaskets on my ISB. There is a specific torque and sequence for the manifold bolts. I am not sure on the 12V head setup but on the 24V the mating surface on the head does not have lugs, just uses bolts and spacers. I would try to get a second opinion from Cummins to see if there is a known issue with the head cracking (like the 53 Blocks cracking). Do I think the cost is high, yes. I would get quotes from several different shops to get a base price. I have never pulled the head off a Cummins engine but I would think a competent mechanic should be able to remove the head in 8 to 12 hours and same for reinstall.


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