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Old 07-06-2012, 06:54 PM   #29
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Info from Freightliner:

SCR: Frequently Asked Questions
2010 Emissions Standards and the RV Industry
Q: What are the new EPA 2010 diesel emissions standards?
A: EPA 2010 diesel engine emissions standards reduce the amount of nitrous oxide (NOx)
emissions into the atmosphere for cleaner air and a cleaner environment. EPA mandates
are pretty common and have been passed in ’94, ’98, ’02, ’07 and now in 2010.
Q: What is SCR?
A: SCR stands for Selective Catalytic Reduction. SCR simply adds a Diesel Exhaust Fluid
(DEF) into the exhaust gas and filters it through a catalyst to convert NOx into nitrogen
and water which is released into the air. It is the next-generation technology that almost
every diesel engine manufacturer is using to comply and the technology that almost all
RV and commercial truck OEMs have chosen to comply with the new 2010 Emissions
Standards.
Q: Is there an alternative solution available to meet the 2010 EPA requirements?
A: Only one manufacturer is pursuing a divergent path from the rest of the industry,
opting to intensify the EGR technology used to reach the EPA 2007 standards, calling
it Advanced EGR (AEGR). However, all other motorhome and engine OEMs have
selected SCR because of its proven technology and benefits to the RV owner and
the environment.
Q: Why are the overwhelming majority of engine, truck and motorhome manufacturers
using SCR?
A: Because SCR is a Simple, Clean and Reliable technology:
• Simple: SCR is built upon existing technology and simply adds a Diesel Exhaust Fluid
(DEF) and a catalyst to remove additional particulates and emissions.
• Clean: SCR technology has been certified by the EPA to meet its new standards.
• Reliable: Although relatively new to North America, SCR is a proven technology that
has been in use in Europe since 2006 with over 600,000 SCR equipped commercial
vehicles in service over hundreds of millions of miles. In addition, more than 30
million test miles were run in the U.S. before SCR was released to the market.
Q: Are there other benefits of SCR technology?
A: Yes, many. In addition to meeting 2010 emissions standards, SCR gives you 5 to 8
percent better fuel economy, more torque and more horsepower versus a similarly
equipped EPA 2007 engine using EGR technology.
Q: D oes either SCR or AEGR require additional components
or add additional weight?
A: Yes, they both do. SCR requires only the addition of a DEF tank and
SCR catalyst, while AEGR will require a larger engine to achieve
similar horsepower and torque ratings, a larger radiator for cooling
and, in some cases, an additional turbo. In the end, both of these
technologies are expected to add a similar amount of additional
weight to the motorhome.
Q: How easy is it to refill the DEF tank?

A: It’s hassle-free. DEF is as simple and quick to refill as windshield wiper fluid and is
readily available at thousands of travel centers and auto-parts supply stores nationwide.
Q: Is there any additional maintenance associated with SCR?
A: The DEF filter must be changed every 200,000 miles – THAT’S IT. Aside from this, there
is no added maintenance for SCR-equipped engines. Owners simply follow the same
scheduled maintenance intervals as they do currently.
Q: Is DEF expensive?
A: No, it actually saves you money. The cost of DEF is similar to a gallon of diesel and
a little DEF goes a long way. The average diesel motorhome can go from New York
to Los Angeles on a single 10-gallon tank of DEF. So the 5 to 8 percent improvement
in fuel economy versus older technologies actually puts money back in your pocket.
Q: Are SCR and DEF safe?
A: Yes, DEF is two-thirds water, and is safer than most other fluids used in a car or truck,
including oil, fuel, antifreeze and brake fluid.
Q: Will the DEF freeze?
A: DEF can freeze, however the DEF tank is insulated and the SCR system utilizes heated
lines to ensure that DEF is ready upon start-up and does not freeze while the vehicle
is operating.
Q: Will the DEF degrade?
A: Although DEF can degrade, it requires intense, direct heat of 125 F degrees over a long
period of time to do so. Since the DEF tank is under the coach and out of the sunlight,
it is extremely unlikely that the temperature of the DEF would reach 125 F degrees for
any sustained period of time.
Q: What happens if I run out of DEF?
A: The gauge within the coach will alert you several times for several days before your
DEF tank is empty. However, should you ignore the warnings, the RV will experience a
gradual derate – or slow down – until the DEF is refilled.
Q: What if I add water to the DEF tank?
A: A sensor is constantly gauging exhaust emissions levels. If DEF is replaced with water, the sensor will detect emissions outside the EPA range, and act as though the coach
is out of fluid.




Call Freightliner Custom Chassis Corporation at (800) 545-8831, or visit us on the Web at freightlinerchassis.com.

10/10, FCC/MC-S-369. Specifications are subject to change without notice. Freightliner Custom Chassis Corporation is registered to ISO 9001:2000 and ISO 14001:2004.
2010 Daimler Trucks North America LLC. All rights reserved. Freightliner Custom Chassis Corporation is a subsidiary of Daimler Trucks North America LLC, a Daimler company.
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Old 07-07-2012, 07:58 AM   #30
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I don't think Navistar will add the DEF treatment to their Maxxforce 7 and Maxxforce 10, since the already comply with 2010 EPA.

Though that might change in the future as 2017 standards come into play..

I wonder how much load capacity you gain with a AEGR system, vs a SCR system, with fluid, especially for a non-tag coach...
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:19 PM   #31
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Quote:
To be used for diesels in the United States and Canada, ICT+ combines the company's current Advanced Exhaust-Gas Recirculation with liquid urea (diesel exhaust fluid) injection aftreatment similar to that used by competitors. ICT+ will be initially introduced on Navistar's MaxxForce 13 engine in early 2013, with the MaxxForce 15 to follow, said Daniel Ustian, Navistar's chairman, president and CEO.

They said current products will continue for the rest of the year using a combination of previously earned emissions credits and non-conformance penalties for trucks sold in some states. They took no questions about how each of Navistar's midrange and heavy duty engine families will be affected or anything else regarding ICT+.
Full Story
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Old 07-08-2012, 12:16 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert L View Post
I don't think Navistar will add the DEF treatment to their Maxxforce 7 and Maxxforce 10, since the already comply with 2010 EPA.
Maybe I'm wrong, but my understanding is that NONE of their engines have yet met 2010 EPA standards, and that they've been able to sell them only by using banked credits and paying per-engine penalties.
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Old 07-08-2012, 04:50 AM   #33
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The Maxxforce 7 and Maxxforce 10, the ones used in school buses and RVs, have and continue to meet EPA's standards.

The problem are the 13s and 15s, which are used in the over the road trucks, ie: 18 wheelers




Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabby Mike View Post
Maybe I'm wrong, but my understanding is that NONE of their engines have yet met 2010 EPA standards, and that they've been able to sell them only by using banked credits and paying per-engine penalties.
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Old 07-08-2012, 05:09 AM   #34
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"DEF Engines Soon To Be The Only Choice"

Even though I will never own a vehicle that required DEF, I can't help but wonder if the price of DEF will go up and down, like fuels do, every time the supplier sees a leaf fall.
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Old 07-08-2012, 06:20 AM   #35
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I do not have a diesel coach. I belong to a touring club and have talked to an owner of a DEF equiped coach. He had a 2006 Winnebago Journey (36') equiped with a "Cat" engine. He said he averaged 6.5-7 MPG with that coach. He traded it for a 2011 Winnebago Journey (40U). He said he is getting 9 1/2 to 10 MPG with the 40 footer.
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Old 07-08-2012, 06:58 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunner View Post
"DEF Engines Soon To Be The Only Choice"

Even though I will never own a vehicle that required DEF, I can't help but wonder if the price of DEF will go up and down, like fuels do, every time the supplier sees a leaf fall.
Unlike supply and demand which we would expect would be the rule, I don't feel uncomfortable saying that absent an alternate technology where the product is not required that a built in price damper would be the rule. Absent customer choices, DEF providers can set whatever price they feel the market will bear.

In my opinion, I believe that over the course of the next few years that technology will catch up and nobody will need to use a diesel exhaust fluid. This might suggest that the fluid industry will need to recover those costs between now and then plus be profitable.
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Old 07-08-2012, 07:10 AM   #37
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I don't find fault in companies making money, it's just that some they take advantage of a situation where you have no other choice.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone caught gouging should be treated like looters; shot on sight. That may sound harsh, but some countries cut off you hand for stealing.
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Old 07-08-2012, 08:20 AM   #38
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Urea is also used worldwide as a way to bring protein levels up in livestock feed. A diesel engine likes to eat too so just think of it as "feed".
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Old 07-08-2012, 09:32 AM   #39
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There's no rocket science to making DEF. I suspect even a determined amateur could mix it up in his garage. It's simplicity should keep the prices in line as any attempt to artificially inflate the price will just invite competition. As an ever larger percentage of the fleet needs DEF, that also will invite competition. The major cost of DEF, I suspect, is the cost of packaging and/or distribution.

I have no doubt that technological advances will eventually come up with an alternative, but in the meantime, I've not found occasionally adding the DEF to be much more than a minor inconvenience, at most.
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Old 07-08-2012, 09:39 AM   #40
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There's no rocket science to making DEF. I suspect even a determined amateur could mix it up in his garage.
Yep, pure granular urea (found in the lawn & garden department of a "big box" store) and distilled water is all you would need.

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Old 07-08-2012, 11:29 AM   #41
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Is it's main component urine?

Buy a keg of brew and invite all your friends for a DEF tank filling party right before a trip.
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Old 07-08-2012, 01:11 PM   #42
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Quote:
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Is it's main component urine?
Ummmm.....no, although organic urea is found in urine. The urea (CO[NH2]2) used in DEF is synthesized from a reaction between carbon dioxide (CO2) and anhydrous ammonia (NH3).

CO2 + 2(NH3) -> CO(NH2)2 + H2O

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