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Old 02-25-2015, 05:46 PM   #15
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I can not imagine anyone "hateing" a system that improves our air quality by 100%. The exhaust from a DEF engine expells cleaner air than we breath walking down the street.
Cat pulled out because their business with the RV market was minimal for them to produce a more efficient engine that met DOT standards. Maintenance nightmare ??? your mechanic obviously has little knowlege of this system to make that statement.
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Old 02-25-2015, 07:49 PM   #16
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Diesel Power

I have a 2004 CAT C13 engine in my Panther. It has 525hp and 1750 ft lbs of torque. I weigh 42k lbs and tow a 4k lb SUV. Just purchased the trailer and haven't towed with it yet. When I pull a grade like the grapevine I set the cruise control for around 57 mph, set the Allison to economy and let the ECM's take me up the hill. I usually top out at 48 mph at around 1750 rpm. My temps stay flat at around 195-200. My only complaint is the 5.4 mpg I average no matter how I drive it. Click image for larger version

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Old 02-26-2015, 07:33 AM   #17
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I have a 2004 CAT C13 engine in my Panther. It has 525hp and 1750 ft lbs of torque. I weigh 42k lbs and tow a 4k lb SUV. Just purchased the trailer and haven't towed with it yet. When I pull a grade like the grapevine I set the cruise control for around 57 mph, set the Allison to economy and let the ECM's take me up the hill. I usually top out at 48 mph at around 1750 rpm. My temps stay flat at around 195-200. My only complaint is the 5.4 mpg I average no matter how I drive it. Attachment 87083
It has 525hp and 1750 ft lbs of torque.: thumb:
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Old 02-26-2015, 08:08 AM   #18
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I would be more enthusiastic about DEF if it was more green and I could use my own urea.

I think we need to limit non-DEF rigs like we limit smokers. Not allowed in Federal and State parks, private campgrounds, etc. Air Quality is important...why should I have to breathe in the exhaust from a non-DEF rig?

Easiest way to avoid DEF is buy gas. Easiest way to reduce costs is buy gas. Easier servicing and more places to get serviced with gas. Less than half the rig depreciation when you buy gas.
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Old 02-26-2015, 08:23 AM   #19
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I would be more enthusiastic about DEF if it was more green and I could use my own urea.

I think we need to limit non-DEF rigs like we limit smokers. Not allowed in Federal and State parks, private campgrounds, etc. Air Quality is important...why should I have to breathe in the exhaust from a non-DEF rig?

Easiest way to avoid DEF is buy gas. Easiest way to reduce costs is buy gas. Easier servicing and more places to get serviced with gas. Less than half the rig depreciation when you buy gas.
I can't argue with facts... can you be a little less specific
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Old 02-26-2015, 08:25 AM   #20
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Well gas fumes will kill you diesels not ! Why should I have to breath gasoline fumes?
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Old 02-26-2015, 09:44 AM   #21
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Well that made an interesting turn.


OP, if you purchase a new coach with an ISL you're not going to "feel" any difference in power, compared to what you drive now.


I believe everything else was covered.
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Old 02-26-2015, 09:50 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by djbmsu View Post
I can not imagine anyone "hateing" a system that improves our air quality by 100%. The exhaust from a DEF engine expells cleaner air than we breath walking down the street.
Cat pulled out because their business with the RV market was minimal for them to produce a more efficient engine that met DOT standards. Maintenance nightmare ??? your mechanic obviously has little knowlege of this system to make that statement.
He didn't say it didn't work, but unless you are a heavy equipt mechanic with 35 years of experience and have worked hands on a system I don't think you can judge. Go to a truck wash, talk to the long haul truckers and you'll get an ear full. BTW your comment about CAT is not true. I have friends that work for CAT and the explanation is too long to go into here. Suffice it to say it wasn't just the RV market they pulled out of, it was the over the road (that's long haul and short haul trucks) and Marine application markets. That's is big.
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Old 02-26-2015, 10:06 AM   #23
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I think there may be some misconceptions here. The EPA reg changes in 2007 and 2010 had an impact on engine design, cost and miles per gallon, but the engine still produces whatever horsepower it is rated for. If you buy a 2008 coach that says it has a 425 hp engine, it will have the claimed 425 hp. What it may do is consume more fuel to produce it. Then in 2010, some of that loss of mpg is gained back, So yes, you should prefer an engine built after 1/1/2010 but the reason is fuel economy, not power.

All the engines built after 1/1/2007 will have slightly increased maintenance costs for the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter). Engines built after 1/1/2010 also consume DEF as well as diesel fuel, so there is a small increase in cost per mile of operation.

So, you need not be concerned about a loss of power as far as hill climbs are concerned. Buy a coach with at least as good a lbs/hp ratio as you now have. For example, if you now move 30,000 lbs with 400 hp, that's 30,000/400 or 75 lbs/hp. To have similar performance, a 40,000 lb coach would need 533 hp. Given that you are increasing the size of the coach substantially, it's probably going to be a larger engine than your 400 ISL.
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Old 02-26-2015, 12:28 PM   #24
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Well gas fumes will kill you diesels not ! Why should I have to breath gasoline fumes?
We are already being killed by fumes folks. Carbon Dioxide levels are starting to rise, temps are starting to rise, forests getting wiped out by beetles that are migrating further north because the winters are not cold enough now to kill of larve. 7% of LA's current smog attributed to smog blowing over the Pacific from Chine. They are checking for radiation off the CA kelp beds from the Fukashima nightmare.

Sorry

I don't wan to go nuff said.
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Old 02-26-2015, 01:14 PM   #25
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canes1......You're talking about doing exactly what we did. We had an 05 Diplomat with a 400 ISL that weighed 32K. It ran great and got good mileage. I chipped the engine to 450 HP and when towing my 5500 pound truck on a 6K trip, I got 9.3 mpg, driving 58mph.

Fast forward, we wanted a new coach with a tag axle. We bought the coach in my signature that weighs in at 37K. It has the same torque, but the HP was bumped to 450 HP. It's starting to break in and run better. It's a DEF motor and I think they bump them to 450 HP as a sales gimmick to overcome added emissions.

With that said, my 400ISL tweaked to 450HP in the Diplomat was a rocket, even when towing my truck, making the Diplomat similar in weight to our Dutch Star. The Dutch Star, not towing, doesn't climb as well as the Diplomat towing the truck. I attribute some of this to the tag axle, larger/taller front nose, and still not broken in.

My understanding is that the DEF system was suppose to allow the engine to run without "smog equipment" and then clean up the dirty exhaust through the DPF system (exhaust and DEF fluid injection). Yet, my coach still has an EGR and who knows what else. I just don't feel this engine will ever run as well as my previous ISL....I hope I'm wrong.

With that said, we wanted a knew coach and I knew that clean air systems would be part of that. I like that the new coach burns clean. You can wipe my tailpipe with a white glove and it's spotless. I think my new coach will eventually get up to what the Diplomat with toad was doing MPG wise , but not while towing. The new coach is 5K heavier and knew there would be a mileage drop. Currently, we're getting about 8.2 towing at 62 mph.

So.....you probably won't climb as fast as you did with the Damon and the mileage will drop some with the tag and weight increase, but we love our new coach.
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Old 02-26-2015, 03:48 PM   #26
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Don, thanks for your response!! That is the answer we where looking for. It is almost time to get a newer coach and we will be more than happy to lose some of the power to gain some of the newer options and save the environment as well.


I wouldn't mind "chipping" our rig in the mean time, what system did you use and are there any negatives?
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Old 02-26-2015, 04:30 PM   #27
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Don you coach is doing well IMO, my mileage average is 8.2 also, but MH GVW is 31,000, HP 350.
A friend has a 40' 2014 Fleetwood Excursion W/ISL engine and claims just over 10 MPG. I wish_.
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Old 02-26-2015, 09:22 PM   #28
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Put "digicr" in the search box above and you will find several posts concerning a chip for the 400ISL. I have had mine on a dyno and the improvement is amazing. You can feel it in the foot pedal as well as seeing a mileage improvement.
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