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Old 05-15-2016, 11:57 AM   #1
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Thumbs up DIESELS WITH and WITHOUT DEF

This has been probably asked a million times. If you purchase a Motorhome an the diesel engine does not use DEF. Does the lower emission diesel fuel effect the engine, compared to a newer model with DEF. Just wondering.
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Old 05-15-2016, 12:09 PM   #2
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NO, low sulfer diesel fuel makes no difference in the driveability or reliability of an older diesel engine.
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Old 05-15-2016, 12:11 PM   #3
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This has been probably asked a million times. If you purchase a Motorhome an the diesel engine does not use DEF. Does the lower emission diesel fuel effect the engine, compared to a newer model with DEF. Just wondering.
Thanks
Depending on the year of your Thor, your engine may or may not be required to burn the ultra low sulfur diesel we find in our pumps now. When they went to this new stuff we lost a few % of mileage as the engine manufacturers had to de-rate the engines to make the new emissions standards, even with the ultra low sulfur diesel fuel. They don't make a habit of publicizing that fact, but if you dig into their documentation, it's there. Running an "older" rig on the ultra low will not give you that loss and many people with older coaches like them for that reason. Just depends on the particular EPA standard your engine was built under. Coach year may have little resemblance to engine year as engine builders made a whole mess of engines for stock before the standard changed and coach makers put the "older" but un-run engines in newer coaches. Smart move for those who ended up with this match up.
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Old 05-15-2016, 12:39 PM   #4
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DIESELS WITH an WITHOUT DEF

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This has been probably asked a million times. If you purchase a Motorhome an the diesel engine does not use DEF. Does the lower emission diesel fuel effect the engine, compared to a newer model with DEF. Just wondering.
Thanks

Well the increased processing of the fuel to remove the sulfur, leaves the fuel with less
lubricity than it had before. Sometimes the addition of bio-diesel increases the lubricity back to normal levels, there is just no way to know for sure.

Some people like to use a diesel fuel lubricity additive as "insurance" against not knowing if the fuel is wearing the injector pump or not. The choice is yours.
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Old 05-15-2016, 03:40 PM   #5
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Ultra-low-sulfur diesel (ULSD) is diesel fuel with substantially lowered sulfur content. As of 2006, almost all of the petroleum-based diesel fuel available in Europe and North America is of a ULSD type. There is not a single standard set of specifications and as the government mandated standard becomes progressively more strict so does the definition.

The move to lower sulfur content is expected to allow the application of newer emissions control technologies that should substantially lower emissions of particulate matter from diesel engines. This change occurred first in the European Union and is now happening in North America. New emissions standards, dependent on the cleaner fuel, have been in effect for automobiles in the United States since model year 2007.

ULSD has a lower energy content due to the heavy processing required to remove large amounts of sulfur from oil, leading to (1 to 2%) lower fuel economy. Using it requires more costly oil.
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Old 05-15-2016, 09:32 PM   #6
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I add a gallon of Walmart 2 cycle oil to every 100-150 gallons (it's low ash) for lubricity and when needed a separate product for storage. FYI I don't have a dpf or any emissions gear.
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Old 05-15-2016, 10:30 PM   #7
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I add a gallon of Walmart 2 cycle oil to every 100-150 gallons (it's low ash) for lubricity and when needed a separate product for storage. FYI I don't have a dpf or any emissions gear.
Dittos. Can't hurt.
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Old 05-16-2016, 08:26 AM   #8
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I bought a 2013 HR Ambassador, 40'. Engine is a 350 Maxxforce made by International. Does not use DEF, and was one of the reasons I bought this model. Have driven to Colorado, Florida wthout any problems on hills or mountians. HR switched (?? year) back to Cummings with DEF. Do not think any MH (other than those that might have the MaxxForce) since 2007 will use DEF.
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Old 05-16-2016, 12:53 PM   #9
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I was under the assumption that all diesel engines from 2011 and newer must use DEF to reduce NOX emissions. Even farm equipment uses it.

A lot of the old school diesel mechanics I have talked to like to add Marvel Mystery oil to their fuel tanks to aid in lubrication. Personally I don't think it's necessary, but what do I know.
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Old 05-16-2016, 01:22 PM   #10
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I was under the assumption that all diesel engines from 2011 and newer must use DEF to reduce NOX emissions. Even farm equipment uses it.

A lot of the old school diesel mechanics I have talked to like to add Marvel Mystery oil to their fuel tanks to aid in lubrication. Personally I don't think it's necessary, but what do I know.
It's not that they have to use DEF, it's gotten to the point that meeting the pollution targets is almost impossible without doing it. DEF injection in the exhaust is a lot cheaper and reliable for the mfg than some other strategies and at this point I personally think it's the preferred method. FYI using DEF means less exhaust has to be re-introduced into the combustion chamber (via cooled egr) and I personally think that's a good thing. If you've ever seen the intake manifold on a non-def vehicle (with a dpf) you'll know what I mean. The emissions stuff is just a joke...
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Old 05-16-2016, 02:54 PM   #11
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DEF has nothing to do with the fuel sulfur content. It's usage derives from stricter limits on emissions, not from the reduction of sulfur in diesel fuel. However, the lower emissions mandate passed by Congress some years earlier led to both requirements by the EPA. So leave DEF out of the question - engines either require DEF or not, and it is purchased separately for those that do. The reduced NOx emission standard went into effect for highway engines produced after 1/1/2010 and virtually all highway-use diesels since then require DEF for their emissions reduction system.

ULSD became the diesel fuel standard in 2006 and engines built after that probably have some tweaks to better accommodate the lack of sulfur in the fuel. Others have already written about sulfur and lubricity, so you can decide whether you want to add a lubricant to the fuel for engines built before that, and maybe those after than as well. Cummins says it's not necessary, but what do THEY know?
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Old 05-17-2016, 12:27 AM   #12
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It's not that they have to use DEF, it's gotten to the point that meeting the pollution targets is almost impossible without doing it. DEF injection in the exhaust is a lot cheaper and reliable for the mfg than some other strategies and at this point I personally think it's the preferred method. FYI using DEF means less exhaust has to be re-introduced into the combustion chamber (via cooled egr) and I personally think that's a good thing. If you've ever seen the intake manifold on a non-def vehicle (with a dpf) you'll know what I mean. The emissions stuff is just a joke...
I do know what the inside of a diesel intake manifold looks like, I'm a diesel tech.

I disagree with the emission equipment being a joke though, the NOX out of the turbo can be 350ppm during part throttle cruise, while the NOX out of the tailpipe will be 20ppm or less. The particulate filter also removes 99% of the smoke.

I'd like for future generations to be able to breath clean air.

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Old 05-17-2016, 12:29 AM   #13
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I add a gallon of Walmart 2 cycle oil to every 100-150 gallons (it's low ash) for lubricity and when needed a separate product for storage. FYI I don't have a dpf or any emissions gear.
Ours has the DPF and I think the oil would cause it to regen more often.
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Old 05-17-2016, 12:30 AM   #14
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I'd like for future generations to be able to breath clean air.
Take a look at the air pollution in China! They need to work on that.
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